Transport Committee on April 29th, 2014

[Paul Boissonneault]

Correct.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

So that's also how your engineers would also be recognizing this, true visual recognition. I'm assuming the firefighters who deal with it on a fairly sporadic basis—hopefully an extremely sporadic basis—are able to identify and recognize what's on those train cars, and that also your operators would be able to identify that.

[Rex Beatty]

Well, you have to understand that when a train derails—and you say there's some history to it—the train is like a snake, so it could be on a curve. The only way we know what's happened when the train has come to an emergency stop is to actually go back and take a look at what's happened. You can only do that from the lead of the train. There's nobody on the tail end any more.

So you would walk back, and it could be just around the corner, and it might just be a pull apart. It might not be a derailment at all, or it could be a major derailment. So you don't know until you get back there what you're facing.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I wanted to touch quickly on the voice and video recording for safety but not for discipline. I understand essentially where you're coming from there and I think most people would see that as a fair process.

I do want to have confirmation, though. Does this means to you that absolutely under any circumstances, even if it was very obvious that an egregious safety violation occurred that was an extreme danger, not only to that employee but to many other employees around them, that you would say absolutely that it could never be used as evidence?

You know, I get what you're saying with the minor violation, etc, but I'm talking about an extremely egregious act that is very obviously endangering many people. Would you say it absolutely has to be thrown out?

[Phil Benson]

I'll start and then I'll pass it to Mr. Beatty.

Our poster boy during the rail safety amendments was Brother McDavid, who was fired for not having his bootlaces correctly tied as he was leaving a cab to sign off. What you're talking about may, in 10 or 15 years, similar to pilots who have processes in place—non-punitive processes—upon agreement with agreements.... We're dealing with companies who fire people for not having their bootlaces correctly tied. So when you're talking about the future, let's start baby steps, and what you're talking about is way down in the future, just like with SMS and everything else. But at this point, these companies—you've heard the stories and the grievances—they're simply not trusted by the membership. Mr. Beatty will have more practical responses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Very quickly, Mr. Beatty, please....

[Rex Beatty]

Sure. Very simply, as we sit here today, the answer is no. We're against that, simply by the history of how the railways are conducting themselves. But who knows how that relationship will develop over the future?

Quite frankly, we don't trust them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Braid, you have five minutes.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our panel for being here this morning.

Mr. Boissonneault, I wanted to start with a couple of questions for you, please. Thank you very much for being here and for the important work that you and other fire chiefs and firefighting organizations do across the country. It's great to have you and many of your colleagues in Ottawa this week as well.

You talked about the importance of first responders having access to additional information with respect to the transportation of dangerous goods that are moving through communities across Canada. I just want to have a good clear discussion on this. Are you suggesting that we need to go further than the current agreement that involved the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, and what are the gaps?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Yes, we're suggesting that information sharing needs to be enhanced. There needs to be a more comprehensive approach to information sharing. We feel that, certainly since the Lac-Mégantic situation, there has been clear leadership and direction towards the necessity for that information sharing to continue and to be enhanced. In looking at the future, which has been identified here, we feel that certainly there is an effort that information sharing will be a key communication piece as we move forward. But yes, I am suggesting that it needs to be enhanced and that the gaps at this point continue to be that municipalities do not have the information on a yearly basis.... Up until such time as the protective direction had indicated that it shall take place at least once a year, we didn't have that before.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I'm just curious to know why the gap occurred. I presume you were quite involved with discussions with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. What happened?

[Chris Powers]

Maybe I'll answer that.

I was involved with that committee, with the FCM and the Railway Association, and you have to distinguish between information for emergency planning purposes, which is the protective direction, which says that once a year the railroads will provide a quarterly report of movements. That's in order to address...for seasonal changes in dangerous goods. For example, propane would be a higher volume in the fall and winter, and anhydrous ammonia in the spring and summer.

So the planning process for the municipality in terms of what types of products present the greatest danger and the greatest volumes can take place as part of their overall municipal emergency plan, and the emergency responders can then say they need to train based on these types of commodities and have the resources provided by the people who are shipping them.

We don't start training when we're responding. We have to be trained before that. We recognize that there's going to be a time gap between the notification and when we can do the assessment at the scene as to what exactly the involvement is, the type of products involved, and get all the resources necessary. It's not an instantaneous resolve. It takes time to assess. So part of the awareness is, let's secure the area to prevent as many injuries and deaths...and then come up with an action plan. Some of those components are still missing.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

But given that there is little if no change to the types of goods that go through specific communities, aren't you able to train based on the information you're receiving now?

[Chris Powers]

As Chief Boissonneault said, once we get this information then that will be a big improvement over what occurred before. Frankly, the big change has been the increase in the crude volumes, and those will continue to increase. That was a significant change that wasn't recognized by the municipalities to the extent of the risk that's presented. Now we know.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay.

With respect to the possibility of enhancing the type or the level of information, there is some concern about balancing additional information with security risks or about having that information getting into the hands of the wrong individuals. Others might, but I don't want to minimize those potential risks, so how do we continue to find the balance if we want to provide more information but minimize security risks?

[Paul Boissonneault]

With respect, we understand those security risks as well. We're saying we want to take a proactive approach so we can plan for an emergency. As you indicate, even if products change at different times of the year, there is an indication that those products are coming, and we know when they're coming, and on a yearly basis we can understand and train to those.

Again, the challenging piece for us is that training element, which does not specifically blanket-cover every municipality across Canada because of the diversity that exists in the Canadian fire service. With over 80% of our entire population being volunteer-based, the increased need for training and the responsibility to prepare and to have a viable, experienced, trained emergency response group for different types of events become substantial challenges for these municipalities. Without the information and training pieces, they're not going to be readily prepared. That's why the ERAP process was so vital. There is a training piece involved in those ERAPs, which may assist these municipalities to enhance the training and therefore provide a better public safety aspect for that community.

Again, they may not be able to afford that training piece, but that's where that relationship is built, and there needs to be leadership to ensure that the ERAP is enacted.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Just before we go on to our last few questions, Mr. Beatty, in your opening remarks, you talked about conductors or engineers on the train and about 60 demerit points, but you didn't go into any detail.

When you're talking about demerit points for driving a car or whatever, you get two if you're driving 10 kilometres per hour over; three if you're 15 kilometres per hour over; three for not wearing a seat belt, and so on. You have a total of 15, and well before that, you actually have to go in and write your licence. So 60 seems like a lot, but I don't know how the system works, and I was wondering if you could explain a little more about how that works.

[Rex Beatty]

Sure.

In the Brown system, the lowest amount of discipline is just a letter of reprimand. The minimum you would normally get would be 10 for a minor infraction—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Could you give me an example of a minor infraction?

[Rex Beatty]

Sure. We'll say, if you're late for work, you'd get 10 demerits or if you're crossing a track and you stepped on a rail.... You're not allowed to step on the rail. In the case of Mr. McDavid, he didn't have his shoelaces tied to the top eyelets. He got 10 demerits for that, so we're talking about those types of things. If you did something a second time, you might get 15 demerits, because you'd already have 10 for it, so there would be progressive discipline.

Then you get into more serious matters. We'll say if you go by a red signal, a stop signal, even if it's by 10 feet, that could be a discharge immediately. You could be discharged for that. So it varies, based on the infraction that's occurring.

Normally, what happens is there are quite a few members out there sitting at around 45 to 50 demerits, so they're just on the cusp of being disciplined. Quite frankly, it's those types of people who will not raise safety issues. They want to keep low. They want to keep out of the limelight. They want the target off their back and just to do as they're told. I think that's where the system has its problems.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

In that system, if after a certain timeframe they don't gain more demerit points, do they gain them back? Do they come off of their total?

[Rex Beatty]

If you go for one full year after the incident without any discipline—and you have to be an active employee, so you can't be off on holidays and so forth—you'll lose 20. Every year they'll take 20 back from you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Okay.

There was just one other thing. You said that the trains never stop and that kind of thing. Coming from an agricultural background, I'll have a half-million-dollar combine sitting there. In harvest season I can't afford to let it sit there for one minute other than to refuel it and check the oil. It's the same thing in planting season, you have to keep that tractor and your equipment running.

So are you suggesting that the trains have to stop to address the fatigue issue or something else within that? Because, to me, when you have that kind of money sitting there, that investment not just in the engines and the cars but in the cargo that's on them, you have to keep them moving. So maybe you could....

[Rex Beatty]

Sure.

I come from a farmer's background, my family. No, that's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that when those trains are moving, those crews are alert, they're not physically fatigued, and whatever stress is put on them outside the issue of just sleep is minimized. We want these crews to be alert and to be efficient doing their jobs.

So it's not about stopping the trains—not at all.