Transport Committee on June 3rd, 2014

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Partnership and cooperation with whom?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

With Transport Canada.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

With Transport Canada.

[Capt Scott Wilson]

Absolutely.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

We agree, then, right? We agree that we can't really have an SMS unless one of the integral partners, Transport Canada, is doing its share of the job, right?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

Absolutely.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Great. Let's just review some of the things we've heard from Transport Canada's own air inspectors.

The aviation inspectors who work for Transport Canada conducted a very detailed survey. Here are a few of the things they've told us.

They say the way Transport Canada safety management systems are structured prevents the correction of safety problems in a timely fashion, up from 80% who worry this would be the case in the early days of the safety management system. Two-thirds of the minister's own inspectors are telling her that Transport Canada safety management systems will actually increase the chances of a major aviation accident.

The inspectors surveyed also say, as a result of the inspector shortage, airlines can now go as long as five years before Transport Canada inspection is required. We understand it's supposed to be happening on an annual basis. It may be happening for the large companies, but there are an awful lot of other companies that are not being caught.

Officials from the minister's own department previously promised MPs on this committee that 30% of Transport Canada aviation inspections would be direct operational inspections, i.e., on-site aircraft and operational inspections, RAM checks, unannounced inspections, etc. This conflicts with the findings of the inspector survey which reports inspectors spend almost no time on direct inspection.

I put a similar question to the rail industry representatives, the large companies. I asked them whether they thought it was their responsibility to try to make sure their partner in the safety management system, the SMS, was upholding their side of the bargain, their responsibility.

Let me ask you, in the face of what we have heard from the inspectors who inspect your companies, what's your reaction?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

I'll start it off, and I know the rest will probably want to join in.

Maybe I'll just provide the framework. As a large enterprise, such as WestJet, Air Canada, Air Transat, and Jazz, we basically have designated individuals in the appropriate lead. We'll have a technical team lead for flight operations, a technical team lead for maintenance. They will then have a cabin inspector for flight—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Forgive me, Mr. Wilson. I only have a fixed amount of time, and it's important to describe how the system works, but we're talking about the partnership here with Transport Canada.

[Capt Scott Wilson]

Correct.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm relying heavily, on behalf of my Conservative colleagues, on the Auditor General's report of April 3, 2012, which is scathing in its criticism about air transportation safety. I want to remind you at the same time that in the public accounts between 2011-12, and 2012-13, this government cut aviation safety by 11%.

On that basis, can you help us understand what's going on at Transport Canada? Don't you really want to know what's going on? Don't you want to be able to tell your shareholders, your insurers, your corporate directors, your officers, your travelling public that this part of the deal isn't actually being upheld?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

Absolutely. We can't speak to what's going on at Transport Canada, but we can speak to our interactions with the inspectors, and under an SMS the interactions are so much more meaningful. They address the root cause. They work backwards. They have to explain the mitigation measures. They have to show the mitigation measures have worked.

I want to touch upon this because this is very important. We've all seen the survey.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Well, apparently not, because when I asked the minister about it in the House of Commons, she said she had never seen it.

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

I guess you will have to follow up with the minister.

I can't let this out there.... The suggestion that airlines go uninspected for a year, or three, or five, is false and inaccurate. There is no scenario—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Fair enough, but let me ask you this. What overtures have you made to the government and the Minister of Transport Canada to get their act together and actually comply with the recommendations of the Auditor General from 2012 and make sure? Don't you think you have an obligation as good corporate citizens—

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

—to safety, absolutely.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

—to make it known to the regulator, who is your integral partner? We've all agreed and you've all admitted you can't have an SMS without proper inspection. Don't you think it's your responsibility? Or are you already making overtures to the government to say, “Hey, government, you had better get your act together on Transport Canada inspections and safety audits, because that's part of the deal we have with the Canadian public.” Your licence to operate isn't granted by Transport Canada. It's ultimately granted by the Canadian public. Wouldn't you agree?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

Well, I don't think it's fair to say that they don't have their act together. Our members work well with the inspectors—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So from your perspective, all inspections are satisfactory. There are no gaps. It's all being done in a timely fashion. Let me ask you: if that's the case, have you read the Auditor General's 2012 report?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

Pardon me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

You're out of time, Mr. McGuinty. Let Mr. O'Rourke or somebody answer.

Mr. Deveau.

[David Deveau]

May I address the member's questions? I think they're relevant questions.

The question does presume that, from the perspective and the experience of the operator, there is a problem with regard to the oversight. I can't speak to the motivations or characterizations in the survey. All I can speak to is fact and the experience we have as operators.

Frankly, I mentioned passion at the beginning, in this realm, in safety, and it is frustrating for us to hear the characterizations that somehow Transport Canada has dissolved into the wind over this transition, whereas the reality, ironically, is quite the opposite. We still see Transport Canada inspectors on a regular basis with much of what you consider the traditional surveillance activities, be they check-rides or visiting our dispatch centres.

What has been added on top of—not instead of, but on top of—that activity is an interaction with us that requires us to peel back the layers of our organization and demonstrate to Transport Canada, with respect to non-compliance, for example, exactly what causal factors were there, how we discovered the issues, and how we're mitigating them, to demonstrate to the regulator that we understand why something may have happened, how we're ensuring that it doesn't happen again, and in fact even proving the effectiveness of our solutions. This is all on top of traditional surveillance activity.

I just want to be clear. We can only speak to the facts and the experience that we have as operators, and we have a deeper and more meaningful oversight experience with Transport Canada than we have in the past.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thanks, Mr. Deveau.

Mr. Watson, you have seven minutes.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not going to be asking questions on an outlier survey commissioned by a union that's principally against safety management systems, but I will talk with the witnesses who are here today about their safety management systems. I want to speak to the member companies more specifically.

Is the documentation that sets out your safety management systems to fulfill the components that you're mandated to have for safety management systems able to be tabled with the committee? How large is the documentation that explains your safety management systems?

[David Deveau]

If I could comment on that, we've made reference a few times to the fact that safety is not a corner of a building activity; the safety management system document set in fact comprises most of the operational documents across the organization. It's infused and integrated into just about everything we do from a procedural and a policy perspective.