Transport Committee on June 3rd, 2014

[David Deveau]

Again, just to echo previous remarks, Canada is very much and consistently seen as the gold standard across the globe. Again, both operators, in terms of benchmarking, and the regulator-to-regulator relations recognize this. It holds true for the international audience as well as the trans-border audience, so there is very little question about that. In fact, I know that some of my other colleagues as well as myself are regularly invited to speak at aviation safety forums in part because we bring forward the experience of working within the Canadian regime for aviation safety.

[Samuel Elfassy]

I would answer that by first explaining that the basis for a safety management system internationally is enshrined within the ICAO standards of recommended practices. Within the various annexes of that document, you will find a requirement for states to include a safety management system as part of their oversight. Some states choose to file a difference with ICAO and indicate that they have not incorporated or promulgated the rules associated with the safety management system, while other states will do so.

What I can tell you is that when I speak, as David and my other colleagues here do, in the international forum, we are approached after our remarks to understand the effectiveness of our safety management system: how you monitor the effectiveness; how you build a safety and a hazard registry that are meaningful not only to your employee group but also to your management and other stakeholders.

I'll leave my remarks at that. Internationally, it varies across the world, but I can tell you very quickly that we within Canada are seen as the gold standard using David's model.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Great. Thank you.

I'll go to a final question. Perhaps I'll pose this question to you, Mr. Wilson. We haven't heard from WestJet yet, as part of this particular section of my questioning.

Could you, as an example of the airlines represented here, describe how WestJet promotes and enhances a culture of safety throughout your airline, from the front line all the way up to the president and CEO?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

The best way to put that together might be as a question that was posed earlier about employee involvement.

We undertake numerous campaigns, so obviously you need an employee group that feels comfortable, that feels safe about bringing forward hazards. That's how the system works. It's their identification, whether from a personal injury perspective of such matters as occupational health and safety, or from the larger perspective of the hazards that are available in an operating environment.

We have many campaigns that are very much directed towards the individual “safety begins with me” piece of the safety puzzle. There isn't a moment that they can't show up in the workplace and not see some sort of safety information in front of them encouraging feedback, current to embolden the system and provide better safety barriers on an ongoing basis.

These safety matters are a huge piece culturally at WestJet. When you look at our missions, visions, and values, you're going to find safety integrated into every one of those aspects.

[Capt Jacques Mignault]

On our side, at Air Transat, I find face-to-face meetings with employees are the best means available as a vehicle for the message about safety. We do it through training programs that are ongoing on a yearly basis. Whether for pilots, flight attendants, or maintainers, we use every opportunity within the safety team to meet face to face and encourage them to participate and contribute to the system.

We also involve the senior management in all the results of our system. We keep them abreast of developments, of what we see and what we have done to correct things that we have identified. From the top to the bottom, there is an overall focus on maintaining safety, as we all realize that this is really what ensures the viability of the company.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Ms. Morin, for five minutes.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today. I will start with a simple question.

Could you please tell me what dangerous goods are transported by air in Canada, including in baggage holds?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

There are several categories, such as batteries, certain gases, as well as pharmaceutical products.

I will turn it over to my colleague, Jacques Mignault, who will be able to go into more detail.

[Capt Jacques Mignault]

We follow the ICAO code, which is very clear about the goods that can be transported, be it by aircraft reserved for transporting cargo or aircraft transporting cargo and passengers. There are very strict rules about that. For each carrier, we choose the categories of dangerous goods that we are willing to transport. We do our own evaluation.

Since we mainly transport passengers, we have established our own additional restrictions regarding certain dangerous goods that we refuse to transport. I know that WestJet, for example, doesn't transport any dangerous goods. It's a choice based on an evaluation of the risks associated with the activity.

As Marc-André mentioned, the whole area of the transport of dangerous goods by air is highly regulated and very strict. Our safety management system enables us to analyze the risks internally and determine whether we are going to transport a certain kind of material.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you very much.

Still, it's strange that representatives from WestJet are here if the company doesn't transport any dangerous goods. I would like to point that out. It's odd.

My other question is about flight attendants. You just mentioned that flight attendants all contributed to the safety system. But there has been a drop in the number of flight attendants in Canada. This may be the only time we get to talk about it because we have not managed to hold a committee meeting on this.

My question is mainly for the Air Canada representative. When we are on one of your aircraft, we always see a little video presentation that says that safety is your priority. We hear it so much that we know it by heart.

If it's your priority, how is it safer to lower the ratio of flight attendants?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

I will answer first.

To begin with, it is important to understand that the matter of flight attendants is simply a harmonization of regulations that already exist across Europe and the United States.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Australia has conducted extensive studies on this in committee. The committees have studied it thoroughly, and they decided to keep the ratio of 1:36. They realized through longitudinal studies that it was safer to do so.

My question is simple: how is it safer to lower the ratio?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

Transport Canada is reviewing this matter. One of the components studied is the placement of flight attendants.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

You're talking about studies. Which studies exactly? Who are you consulting? Who are the experts that contributed?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

The council itself hasn't done any studies. Perhaps you should ask…

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Perhaps Mr. Elfassy could respond. Could you tell me what kind of studies you have done? Who was questioned? How…

[Samuel Elfassy]

Specific studies relative to the reduction of—

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Yes.

[Samuel Elfassy]

Okay.

The basis for the study goes back to working group committees that were held many years ago when this issue was first raised. There was a comprehensive risk assessment that took place. That risk assessment included a number of various stakeholders not only from industry, but other groups within Transport Canada. They studied the regulatory regime in Europe, Australia, the United States.

The risk assessment in fact went further. Without getting into the details of the risk assessment, they looked at the actual residual risk that would be associated with it, and they made decisions on how to mitigate that residual risk. It was the decision of that working group, which I won't go back into because I don't have the historical context, that harmonizing the rules internationally and transborder—

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

As I said, that isn't really an argument. Australia decided to not go forward and to have rules that allowed it to have a 1:36 ratio.

The Dorval airport is in my riding, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine. A lot of flight attendants live in my riding. I have met some who have told me that they are concerned should…

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

You're out of time, but if you ask a quick question, I'll allow it.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

They've told me that they are concerned. Should there be an accident and one of the flight attendants didn't feel well, they would be stuck in a situation where they could not provide assistance. That has been seen previously.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Question, please.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I'm wondering how it could be safer. What I am realizing is that you aren't able to tell me that it is safer.

[Capt Scott Wilson]

There are two points to that.

WestJet currently is operating under exemption for one in 50 in Canada. Actually, one in 50 has been used in Canada under exemption for many years in 50-seat aircraft. Aircraft certified under regulation in Canada are certified to one in 50; that's the international standard.

When we speak of Australia, we looked very closely at all regulatory jurisdictions. Although Australia may have regulations on the books for one in 36, they were the ones, as a regulatory environment, that set the stage for exemptions. Most carriers in Australia are operating under a one-in-50 exemption, which is the international standard.

Going back to safety management systems, the entire intent before you make change.... We have a saying at WestJet, “We do it with our people, not to them”. To the questions about incorporating the front line and their thoughts about it, our flight attendants were actively involved in this adoption of change at WestJet.

When we looked a step further, safety systems required to make decisions based on strong amounts of data, across the world there are only two regulatory jurisdictions not operating under one in 50. That was, to your point, Canada and Australia. We had reams and reams of data and lots of airlines to go to to validate the safety of the change. That's been proven, as we've been operating in Canada at equivalent level of safety, since October 2013, under one in 50.