Transport Committee on June 3rd, 2014

[David Deveau]

Could I just be clear on something? When we talk about assessing risk, risk is a continuum, of course, and safety is not an absolute. One of the hallmarks of SMS is that it's not about emotion. It's not about perception. It's about fact and evidence.

When we look at any scenario, and this is just one scenario, what we're looking at is what evidence there is of hazard or risk, and if we change something, what does it do to that risk, and what can we do to mitigate it. At the end of the day that's what the exercise is about. It's not about absolute safety, because if everyone in this room were to take an automobile to get back to their homes today, they would be at infinitely more at risk than they would ever be on an airplane. It's about understanding what that risk is and whether or not it's acceptable.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

That's one of the questions we had, because we never got the chance to really look at that change as parliamentarians. I think there was talk within the industry, but we haven't been able as regulators to actually look at all the facts, all the studies and things that will reassure us there's no lack of safety.

Also, one of the concerns I have, and that would be more for Transport Canada, is that when we go from 2010 to 2014-15, the accident rate target per 100,000 flight hours has actually increased. They went from 6.3 to 6.7—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Mai, your time has expired.

Mr. McGuinty, for five minutes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Gentlemen, I just want to ask a few snappers. If you have the answer, please; if you don't, just let me know.

You all say that you have a very hand-in-glove relationship with Transport Canada. You work together. It's on an ongoing basis. You have a relationship. You manage that relationship well, so let me ask you: can any of you tell us how many qualified inspectors there are right now at Transport Canada for air safety?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

We have the ones who are directly appointed to the WestJet file, so I can speak to the ones whom we interact with on a regular basis.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Just let me know: do you know how many inspectors there are at Transport Canada for air safety?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

Transport as a whole? I cannot, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Do you know how often aviation companies are supposed to be inspected by Transport Canada?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

There is some guidance under SUR-001 version 5.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

What would that be? How many—

[Capt Scott Wilson]

That's specific to the safety management system, and I believe it shows that there should be an inspection roughly every three years, I believe, David. I don't have the document in front of me so I won't get too much into specifics.

That's from the safety management side.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Every three years?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

There are different types of inspections.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Make it quick, guys, if you could.

[David Deveau]

To supplement that, though, there are different levels, so it's risk based, as we've mentioned before. It's incumbent on Transport Canada to evaluate the need to look at the pieces as well on a much greater frequency depending on—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

The Auditor General's report says that Transport Canada calls for annual inspections:

We also found that although the national planning frequencies state that aviation companies must be inspected every year, about 70 percent of aviation companies across the country were not inspected in 2010–11.

It goes on to say:

Transport Canada has assessed the risk indicators for the five very large air carriers and associated maintenance organizations. For the other 70 large air carriers and maintenance organizations, and about 4,000 small air carriers and maintenance organizations, the Department did not often use the standard risk indicators.

For Canadians who are watching who fly on your airplanes, again, are you not supposed to be inspected annually?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

I guess it comes back to what I think David was trying to bring out as far as inspections. If you take a look at a full assessment of a safety management system, that happens roughly every three years. I think if you look back, though, the old national audit in the pre-SMS days was only, I believe, once every five years, and my counterparts can chime in.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay. That's great.

[Capt Scott Wilson]

[Inaudible—Editor] the inspection, sir, on an almost daily basis. On our flight decks—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Let me ask you another question, if I could, specific to WestJet.

Does WestJet carry dangerous goods?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

No, sir. We're not certified to carry dangerous goods.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Why not?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

It has been a choice from a corporate perspective.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Do other airlines represented here carry dangerous goods?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

The other three are certified to do so.