Debates of Feb. 28th, 2012

Elizabeth May Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. parliamentary secretary to clear up a mystery for me. I attended the briefing held by the Minister of Public Safety on the morning of the bill's first reading. There were no copies available for us in that lock-up, which was unheard of in my experience. I did get a copy of the bill called the lawful access act when I went to the opposition lobby.

I would like to ask the hon. parliamentary secretary why the bill was changed to the offensive title of protecting children from Internet predators act. When was the decision taken? Why was the decision taken at the last minute, with the result that there were no copies of the bill available in the opposition lobby at first reading?

Candice Bergen Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, that relates to the process as opposed to the actual details of the bill. Some might not find the title offensive. I am sorry if my colleague does find it offensive.

It is important for us to talk about the specifics of the bill. If there are ways that we can improve it, to continue to protect Canadians' privacy while at the same time giving police the tools that they need, then let us do that. I am glad the member has the bill today and she had the bill in a timely manner.

I respectfully say I do not think at this point in time that dealing with this silly motion by the Liberals is a really important issue.

Fin Donnelly New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Mr. Speaker, earlier the parliamentary secretary mentioned that the use of fear-mongering terms was not helpful in this debate, but I cannot help but make reference to the public safety minister's comments that people can either stand with the government or with the child pornographers. I really do not find that helpful or constructive in this debate.

The member talked about safeguarding the interests of Canadians. Obviously, all of us in the House have an interest in safeguarding the interests of Canadians, but there is also the issue of legislation going too far. Former public safety minister Stockwell Day stated in 2007:

We have not and we will not be proposing legislation to grant police the power to get information from Internet companies without a warrant. That’s never been a proposal. It may make some investigations more difficult, but our expectation is rights to our privacy are such that we do not plan, nor will we have in place, something that would allow the police to get that information.

The minister was saying that a warrant is needed to search for personal data. I am wondering why the government is now proposing such a change in direction.

Dan Albas Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, during the break back in my riding many citizens raised a whole bunch of questions, primarily why the government supports being able to spy on Canadians. I just want to reassure people, particularly in my riding, that the bill proposes the exact opposite. Bill C-30 ensures the government can protect Canadian interests and online privacy by enabling law enforcement to have the tools to track down and prosecute those who would spy on Canadians.

Hackers, as we know, are hacking into people's personal information. As I mentioned in my speech, as we continue moving forward with electronic health records, we need to make sure that information remains secure. Bill C-30 would do that.

Kevin Lamoureux Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, my question is in regard to law enforcement officers. Whether it is today or after the bill eventually passes in whatever amended form that it passes, could the member give a clear indication that a law enforcement officer would not have the ability to find out a website that has been visited or to read someone's email without having a warrant from a judge?

Dan Albas Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, what we see now is that because there is no policy covering this particular area of the Internet, an ISP could tell the RCMP or another police agency to go pound sand. In another case there might be an ISP that says it will work with the police. Another ISP might say it would give the information but would inform its customer.

Right now the policy is not set in a way that the RCMP can get basic information. That basic information would allow the police to get a warrant to look at materials that may help in a criminal investigation. We are codifying it. We are looking to protect Canadian interests.

Candice Bergen Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety

Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on the question asked by the Liberal member. Just to be very clear, perhaps my hon. colleague could reiterate that police would not be able to access an individual's emails or web browsing history without a warrant.

Could my hon. colleague please answer that?

Dan Albas Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, let us be clear. Canadian law enforcement does not have the same abilities online as it has had in the real world for decades. If the opposition believes that Canadians should continue to be victimized by criminals and foreign interests, our government respectfully disagrees with that. We will stand up and protect Canadians' online privacy against online criminals.

Judy Foote Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor.

I rise to speak to the Liberal opposition day motion introduced by our leader, calling on the House to recognize the fundamental right of all Canadians to freedom of speech, communication and privacy. The motion is in response to the Conservative government's invasive Bill C-30.

If Canada is to remain a truly democratic society, it must strike the correct balance between security and civil liberties and individual rights and freedoms. As written, Bill C-30 does not ensure a balance among those principles.

At the outset, the Conservatives demonstrated their disregard for Canadian civil liberties and individual rights. Rather than sit down and discuss with Canadians and have an honest debate about the strengths and weaknesses of Bill C-30, the government attempted to irresponsibly frame the debate in rhetoric.

The Minister of Public Safety even went so far as to berate one of my colleagues, who was merely bringing the concerns of countless Canadians into the debate, by telling him that he, “can either stand with us or with the child pornographers”.

Attempts to demonize opponents of Bill C-30, many of whom are in my riding as well, and characterize them as friends of child pornographers is not only reckless, but completely unwarranted. The Minister of Public Safety still has not apologized for offending those Canadians who have difficulty with some of the aspects of Bill C-30.

Understandably, Canadians from coast to coast to coast do not trust the government with their personal information. After all, the Conservatives do not exactly have a glowing track record when it comes to managing the personal information of individual Canadians.

Through creeping individual's Facebook accounts and using personal profile information to restrict Canadians from attending public election rallies, sifting through personal medical records of veterans who asked too many questions or inappropriately using voter identification databases to make robocalls that are all about election fraud, the government has worked hard to earn the mistrust of Canadians.

In its current form, Bill C-30 forces Internet service providers to track, save and hand over Canadians' personal subscriber information, including their email and IP addresses, upon request without a warrant. This means that the Prime Minister's people would now have the legal right to monitor the emails of Canadians and track their movements online without any kind of judicial discretion.

The Conservatives destroyed the critical long from census because they claimed it was too intrusive into the personal lives of Canadians. Yet they now propose legislation that encroaches deep into the lives of Canadians and treats all Internet users as criminals. There are innocent Canadians out there.

The public outcry from Canadians and the Liberal Party, following the introduction of Bill C-30, forced the government to admit its legislation was far from perfect and it took the unusual step of shepherding its own legislation to committee before being debated so it could be fixed. The government has said that it will consider amendments from the opposition, and we welcome that.

Unfortunately, that is the same government that has abused its majority at committees to conduct business behind closed doors, making committee business the most secretive it has ever been and requests to do otherwise continue to fall on deaf ears. If the government forces the committee behind closed doors, it can oppose the reasonable and fair amendments that Liberals will be proposing without any public oversight, and this is a serious concern.

Sending Bill C-30 straight to committee for amendments is an important first step in admitting that Bill C-30 is highly flawed, but actions speak louder than words. The true measure of the Conservative government's commitment will be tested and witnessed during the committee proceedings. If the Conservatives truly believe that Canadians have the right to determine how their personal information is handled, then the Conservatives should be forthcoming and accept Liberal amendments at committee.

Canadians, including my constituents in Random—Burin—St. George's, are listening with interest and taking note of the debate over Bill C-30. One of my constituents aptly described the bill when he said, “This bill is a total invasion of privacy”.

Another constituent wrote to tell me that he was concerned about the legislation. He said, “This would be a breach of the basic human rights of all Canadians. It almost goes without saying that giving this kind of power to any institution is ripe for potential abuse”. He goes on further to state, “Not only that, we citizens, will have to pay for it out of our taxpayers wallets. There is also the dangerous potential of criminals having another gateway for hacking into people's accounts”.

Another constituent wrote to me to say that he was equally concerned about the legislation, writing “The online spying ("Lawful Access") bills are poorly thought out, and irresponsibly allow a range of authorities to access my personal data without a warrant”.

A different constituent from my riding went further saying, “Unchecked mass surveillance is a breach of my fundamental right to privacy”.

These are just a few examples of the correspondence that I have received. It is what Canadians are saying, and I am sure all members in the House are hearing the same thing from coast to coast to coast. I have yet to receive a letter in support of Bill C-30.

Privacy is a fundamental freedom enshrined in our charter and Canadians have every right to be worried about heightened surveillance of their online activities. Warrantless use of personal information is an inappropriate violation of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Liberals are seriously concerned that the lack of judicial oversight in the bill relating to subscriber data and that forcing ISP and telecomm providers to have the capacity to trace all communications in their system could create a very slippery slope.

For example, Canada's Privacy Commissioner, Jennifer Stoddart, agrees. Her office, the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, is charged with overseeing compliance with both the Privacy Act and the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act. Exercising her mission to protect and promote the privacy rights of individuals, last October she wrote the Minister of Public Safety detailing her concerns with the government's lawful access proposal. She said:

I am...concerned about the adoption of lower thresholds for obtaining personal information from commercial enterprises. The new powers envisaged are not limited to specific, serious offences or urgent or exceptional situations. In the case of access to subscriber data, there is not even a requirement for the commission of a crime to justify access to personal information – real names, home address, unlisted numbers, email addresses, IP addresses and much more – without a warrant.

Apart from what we are hearing from Canadians throughout the country, this is coming from the Privacy Commissioner.

The government must ensure the protection of the online privacy rights of law-abiding Canadians. Again, there are innocent Canadians out there. The warrantless tracking of Canadians' online activity would unfairly treat all Canadian online users as criminals.

Through Bill C-30, the omnibus crime Bill C-10, Bill C-4 and others, the government has raised serious questions about whether they respects the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Liberals will be focused at committee, finding logical solutions that strike the correct balance between public safety and privacy.

Dan Albas Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member mentioned that the Prime Minister 's men would have access to emails. The member should know full well that police, RCMP and CSIS are at arm's-length and are professional. It certainly sullies their name. I would like the member to consider apologizing in the House for making an accusation on such independent agencies.

Judy Foote Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Mr. Speaker, while I appreciate the hon. member's comments, let me point to my colleague who was investigated by the Department of National Defence when he dared to question the Minister of National Defence's use of a helicopter. The member should not talk to me about what they will or will not do. That is a case in point, where they looked to an individual to find out exactly what he had done.

Alain Giguère Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, earlier, we discussed hit-and-run drivers. The police have access to plenty of information to find the vehicle involved, but that does not give them the right to search the interior of the vehicle. That is a good analogy. If a site is identified as potentially suspicious, that does not give law enforcement permission to go fishing and collect personal information from the site.

Does the problem of cybercrime not have more to do with a shortage of police officers assigned to these cases? Is it not simply about a shortage of police officers and resources to combat this new kind of crime? What does my colleague think?

Judy Foote Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the point he makes.

We are seeing a failure to recognize that there are Canadians who are innocent. What we are experiencing with the government is that it is treating everyone as criminals.

Absolutely, we want to ensure that police officers have the tools they need to do their jobs in the 21st century. There is no question about that. However, in giving them the tools, let us also ensure that they have the person power they need to deliver.