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Crucial Fact

  • Her favourite word was justice.

Last in Parliament May 2004, as Bloc MP for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert (Québec)

Won her last election, in 2000, with 44% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Controlled Drugs And Substances Act April 19th, 1994

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health tabled Bill C-7, an Act respecting the control of certain drugs, their precursors and other substances, but this legislation has nothing to do with public health.

The government is not being honest in tabling a bill under such misleading pretence. This bill concerns criminal law and nothing else. In its present form, it should bear the signature of the Minister of Justice or the Solicitor General.

Whichever way you look at it, it is hard to find in this muddled document anything but a new criminal law to control drugs. Therefore, for the purposes of this debate, I will assume that this legislation is nothing else than what it appears to be. Obviously, the government would want us to believe that this is a health bill, and for one reason only: Criminal laws have to be precise, clear and conclusive. They are passed by Parliament and leave very little leeway to cabinet regarding the definition of their scope. By making Bill C-7 look like an administrative measure, all the provisions allowing Cabinet to establish regulations become justified. This is perhaps the most comprehensive example of legislation by delegation.

There is no other reason why the government would claim that Bill C-7 is a public health measure. The pretence is simply too obvious. The Liberal government is trying to get full decision powers on the most important aspects of the legislation. It has neither the courage nor the honesty to tell Canadians that Bill C-7 is merely an attempt to fight drug trafficking. Why not be honest? Why is the government hiding its true motive? The government should admit that it is so suspicious of this House, that it tries to hide its real intentions. And those intentions are contained in the wording of the legislation.

Police forces are currently enforcing two complementary acts: the Narcotic Control Act which will be repealed by the bill before the House and the Food and Drugs Act, which will be repealed in part. The government maintains that the new act will give more flexibility to police services, because provocation and undercover activities will be authorized under the new regulations.

However, the explanatory notes of the bill are silent on the government's concerns regarding public health. The purpose of this legislation is obviously to control the movement of drugs and suppress trafficking. Why not clearly say so?

This is nothing but a new Narcotic Control Act, framework legislation, unique in itself, criminal legislation which gives cabinet exceptional discretionary powers as to its scope and its implementation, not unlike the former War Measures Act. This is the context in which we have to consider Bill C-7.

Having said so, I agree with the majority of Canadians that we have to provide police and judicial authorities with the tools they need to efficiently suppress drug trafficking. Therefore, I support the purpose of Bill C-7, to the extent that it tries to put a stop to the movement of drugs. From massive importing to individual possession, the legislative drafters covered all social problems associated with illegal drugs.

On this particular topic, I want to say that I am very pleased with the way the various stages of trafficking are dealt with. The bill considers separately such issues as drug production, and importing and exporting, offenses which carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. The exemplary nature of such sentences and deterrence must continue to apply. Harsh sentences such as those will not shock honest citizens.

Zero tolerance for illegal drugs means suppression by police and judicial authorities at all levels of distribution. So, I am pleased with the new classification provided in this bill. Offenses, like simple possession, trafficking, possession for purpose of trafficking, importing and exporting, production of substance, possession of property obtained by trafficking and laundering are now very well identified. Each category is treated according to the seriousness of the offence and carries proportionate sentences.

I do have some reservations about the way possession of cannabis is handled, but that issue can be reviewed by the parliamentary committee, and I look forward to the testimony of experts in this field.

This bill could meet with our approval if it were to lead to some true legislation, but unfortunately it is not the case. Bill C-7 is essentially the same as Bill C-85 which was brought in by the late Conservative government. The government party cannot claim to have created this initiative.

It would be a mistake to try to make people believe that this is a new measure, inspired and motivated by recent circumstances

and designed to give the police effective emergency powers of investigation on trans-border Indian reserves.

This is misinformation. This piece of legislation has been on the back-burner since Bill C-85 died on the Order Paper in the last Parliament. It was revived by the Liberals who have just missed an opportunity to produce a bill that would be easy to read and to understand and that would respect the jurisdiction of the Confederated States, which are still called provinces.

I am disappointed, because if the legislation is passed as it is, it may well miss the point, above all because it will be torn to shreds by the courts on the account of its lack of clarity and of its possible unconstitutionality.

I am disappointed also because we are again faced with a botched and improvised measure. Indeed, if Bill C-7 were to be passed exactly as it is, it would not be understandable for most Canadians, who have no legal training and who would need whole legal essays to distinguish all its subtleties and references to other laws.

Allow me to read two quotes taken from an outstanding study conducted by professors Usprich and Salomon, of the School of Law of the University of Western Ontario on the old Bill C-85, which I myself apply to the current bill. I think these comments are as valid for C-7 as they were for the old C-85, and I quote:

It would not be exaggerated to say that the bill reads generally as if it had been drafted by people who are not familiar with criminal law and who have acquired their experience writing legal texts on income tax-

In general, the legislation is badly written and even if we disregard several blatant mistakes, it is uselessly complex and generally difficult to understand. We consider this bill to be a step backward.

And yet, if it were only for the inaccuracy of the text, it would still be possible to send the minister back to the drawing board, but there is more. The federal legislator uses a style that is confusing, complex and twisted to describe and define very simple cases of trafficking, production and possession of illegal substances.

The bill often refers to other legislation for its interpretation and this makes for an obscure text with countless legal nuances and exceptions, a text so incomplete as to need Cabinet regulations before its final scope can be known.

We all want the bill to achieve its underlying objectives but we denounce the insufficient means it proposes to fight drug traffickers, who will successfully challenge it in court at the first opportunity. This is an amateurish piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, mere window-dressing.

This bill should be sent back to the minister, not the Minister of Health, but the Minister of Justice, to be completely rewritten and brought back to the House as soon as possible. We will give our unconditional support to a complete, simple and effective bill in the same spirit, but not this one which was drafted by people who are completely out of touch with reality.

We are told that this would be an improvement compared to the present legislation, and that the bill is needed to control illegal activities on the Mohawk reserves. Nothing is farther from the truth. I challenge anyone to find something in this bill that gives the police more effective power than the present legislation does.

Finally, this bill is unacceptable because it is outright interference in provincial jurisdiction over civil law procedure and the administration of justice. In the disguise of a bill on public health, the government is actually trying to impose a real code of legal and administrative procedure. The administration of justice inside a province is its exclusive jurisdiction, as is public health, by the way.

Whether you approach the constitutional study of this bill from either of these aspects, namely public health or the administration of justice, the conclusion is the same: it is an unacceptable encroachment upon areas under exclusive provincial jurisdiction.

In order to ensure compliance with the forthcoming regulations, the bill allows the Minister of Health to designate inspectors who have considerable powers. As long as these inspectors do nothing else but examine stocks of designated substances held by licence holders, there will not be any problems. I think that the minister responsible for enforcing the legislation must have the administrative means to fulfil his or her mandate. But the bill authorises these same federal inspectors to contravene any provincial legislation regarding the confidentiality of medical records.

Quebec's privacy legislation, particularly with regard to access to medical records, serves as model. Through its Charter of Rights and Freedoms, its new Civil Code and its privacy legislation, Quebec has become a world leader in this area. In particular, medical records in Quebec are better protected than a fortress. Now, the Minister of Health introduces a bill that would authorize any federal inspector, whose qualifications could be inversely proportional to his or her partisan activities, to enter the place of business of a physician or a pharmacist, to demand access to records and computer data, to make copies of this information and to distribute it to all kinds of people within the federal government. We do not accept that.

Nor do we accept that, in a much more insidious way, the legislation authorizes the cabinet to make compliance regulations that will manifestly go beyond the scope of the bill and that will constitute new attacks on provincial jurisdiction. The minister has done her homework poorly, and, moreover, she leaves it to Cabinet to finish the job. Clause 54 empowers Cabinet to make regulations on what the legislation does not cover. Not only does the legislation say nothing about important

aspects of its implementation but we do not even know which minister will be responsible for it. This will be up to Cabinet to decide.

Even the professional corporations that should be the first to be concerned by this new legislation do not know whether their members will be affected by the bill. Again, it will be up to Cabinet to decide whether pharmacists, veterinarians, doctors and dentists will have to get a licence to sell and distribute designated drugs. If this were not legislation in the field of criminal law, we might be willing to leave it to Cabinet to make regulations. As in the case of several other pieces of legislation, we would only have to define parameters in framework legislation and give Cabinet extensive regulatory powers. In administrative matters, there is no great risk in proceeding that way. To the extent that Cabinet does not go beyond the powers with which it has been entrusted by Parliament, the regulations are generally valid.

It is quite another thing in criminal matters, for the citizen ought not to be forced to read every order in council to understand the content and the import of the bill. Yet with this legislation we are asked to give the cabinet the power to impose its will. Who can believe that we will accept, for instance, that Cabinet could use its regulatory powers to legislate on the conduct of members of the professions governed by the Quebec Professional Code? The activities of doctors, pharmacists, veterinarians and dentists in Quebec are exclusively regulated by legislation that controls the practice of their professions.

In addition to being submitted to their organization's monitoring, professionals in Quebec are governed by the Professional Code. When the government proposes that the cabinet be given the authority to determine the conditions of practice of certain professions, it is asking us to make a clean sweep of provincial jurisdiction in that matter, to disregard the exclusive privileges of professional corporations and to grant itself supreme authority over the main fields of activity of pharmacists.

We cannot tolerate that this government would take advantage of a piece of criminal legislation to give Cabinet regulatory powers that so blatantly intrude into provincial jurisdiction on professional practice.

Here are two examples.

When the bill, in the preamble to clause 54, entrusts to Cabinet the regulation of the medical use of drugs, it deals with medical practice and not drug control.

When the bill gives to Cabinet all powers over the sale, supply and administration of drugs, it deals with the provision of pharmaceutical, dental or veterinary services.

When the bill gives to Cabinet the power to deliver licences for the sale of controlled substances, its affects the provision of all pharmaceutical services.

When the bill hands over to Cabinet the authority over the sale and storage of those substances, over professional qualifications of people authorized to sell them, over records those persons should keep, over the dealings of a professional corporation with its members, it is really a code of ethics and a whole set of regulations that the government is trying to impose to pharmacists.

We could go on for hours about this bill, which ignores the fact that the Constitution of this country is based on a division of powers.

Two recent initiatives confirm our misgivings.

The bill has still not been passed and debate at second reading has yet to be completed and two ministers, with contempt for basic decency, announce enforcement regulations which show how much power Cabinet seeks.

I said that this bill was incomplete. I now add that it is only a general and confusing preamble to a series of regulations that Cabinet will be empowered to adopt at its whim and for any reason.

The Solicitor General announced, in a tendentious press release that the police would have a clear and definite legislative basis for engaging in clandestine activities.

What the minister does not say is that this clear and definite legislative basis for new police powers will be in the regulations and not in the law.

This technique could be called legislative trickery.

It is a blatant lack of respect for Parliament. As if we could not legislate intelligently in this House as the cabinet can behind closed doors.

And the Minister of Health announced through the media that growing cannabis could be allowed for commercial purposes.

This government is trying to acquire full powers. It is presenting a bill only for the sake of appearances.

It is not surprising that the Minister of Health, who is apparently sponsoring the bill, announces without batting an eyelash that she is already trying to amend the law without going through the House.

That shows what little consideration this governement has for the elected members of this House.

We will vote against this piece of legislation which is badly written and thrown together and cannot hide the ambitions of the government to regulate professions that fall under exclusive provincial jurisdiction and gives Cabinet unacceptable and excessive regulatory authority.

Sexual Violence April 12th, 1994

Mr. Speaker, would the minister have us believe that these opinions and studies and those of his advisers will be more effective than formal legislation making excision illegal?

Sexual Violence April 12th, 1994

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

After he promised on International Women's Day to consider the possibility of criminalizing excision, the Minister of Justice told us yesterday that he does not intend to amend the Criminal Code or to introduce specific provisions to deal with this form of sexual violence.

The minister considers the present provisions on assault to be sufficient. However, many countries, including France and Great Britain, have felt the need to legislate specifically on excision.

Why does the minister refuse to criminalize excision, when by doing so he could send a clear message to those who are guilty of it?

Petitions March 24th, 1994

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am presenting a petition from all parts of Canada dealing with gun control, especially the banning of handguns for individuals.

This petition is further to the one from the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce and is from the same source, namely Concordia University.

This petition also has 100,000 signatures and is for the same purpose, namely to ask the government to pass legislation forbidding anyone in Canadian territory to own a handgun, except for members of the Canadian Forces and peace officers in the performance of their duties.

Erik John Spicer March 23rd, 1994

Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to have been asked by my party, the Bloc Quebecois, to rise in this House today to congratulate Mr. Erik John Spicer on his appointment as Parliamentary Librarian Emeritus.

I was first elected to this House on November 21, 1988. As a newcomer and government member at the time, I wanted to know all there was to know. I am naturally curious, of course. I wanted all the information on all items on the agenda, particularly on a subject that has always concerned me: firearms. I wanted to know what legislation and regulations there were in European countries on that subject. I wanted to know under what authority the Americans kept saying that they had an almost

natural right to own firearms. All my questions were answered by the Library of Parliament.

Also, when we sat on committees, and it is still the case today, we could always count on the library, especially for legislative summaries on the various subjects. The Library of Parliament research branch is always ready and willing to provide information to assist us in our quest for truth.

It has also developed briefings for members and departmental assistants so that we and our staff know where to look and who to contact to obtain all the information required for the smooth functioning of our offices.

Furthermore, if you miss one of these briefings, you can always ask the Library of Parliament for the audio tapes. Again, you will get the same excellent service.

All this to say that we greatly appreciate the services developed for us, members of Parliament, as well as for our assistants, to enable us to carry out our duties adequately. Many thanks to Mr. Spicer.

Business Of Supply March 17th, 1994

Madam Speaker, the hon. member heard correctly. I did criticize the motion, which is very vague and is reminiscent of what any small tabloid would use as a main headline. That is what prompted me to say this motion was haphazard, disjointed. It is like saying that we are all in favour of virtue and hate winter. In fact, that is very much the style of this motion. I made an effort to debate it in an intelligent and appropriate manner because I found it to be incredibly general. That is why I criticized it the way I did.

Business Of Supply March 17th, 1994

Madam Speaker, we keep saying that we are here as legislators and nothing else. So, I will not put myself in the shoes of a judge and, based on the very succinct summary of facts presented by our colleagues, tell you what I would have done. First of all, I would need to be apprised of all the facts, as a judge would, before I could hand down a judgement. I think that it is inappropriate to ask me what I would have done in the place of a judge, since I did not get to hear all the witnesses as the judge did at the time. I think that the hon. member's question is totally unjustified.

On the other hand, the member's comment tends to indicate that the system is flawed. That is exactly the point I made in my speech. In case the hon. member did not hear, I will repeat what I said, because that is exactly what I said: our system is flawed and there certainly is room for improvement. In fact, I brought up a suggestion whereby the victim would no longer be just a victim but rather take an active part in the proceedings. I think it was an interesting proposal, at least that was my opinion, but that may not be what the hon. member heard. So, this is my answer to the hon. member.

Business Of Supply March 17th, 1994

Madam Speaker, I will now resume my comments on the Reform Party's motion. I was talking about damage and compensation suits that fall under the jurisdiction of civil courts.

Several provinces have programs to compensate victims of crime. Provincial and federal legislation on this is still inadequate, I agree, but let us at least be honest in our remarks.

We all know that the judge in a criminal trial is not there to pass the sentence desired by the victim.

Madam Speaker, I would ask the two hon. members to my right to maybe move to the back if they want to talk to each other. Thank you.

As I was saying, we all know that the judge in a criminal trial is not there to impose the sentence we or the victim would like to hear but one that he deems fair and acceptable taking into account social standards and the circumstances of the case.

That a victim or his or her loved ones are dissatisfied with the accused's acquittal or shocked by a light sentence is understandable. Many people see a criminal trial as legitimate revenge on a thief or an assailant. They identify with one side of the criminal trial and see themselves as prosecutors. For these people, the trial is a game between themselves and the accused. We must correct this mistake and not reinforce it through comments such as those made in today's debate.

We must tell Canadians that the criminal justice system is adversarial. We have the public prosecutor on one side, the accused on the other, and the judge in the middle. And they all get together to decide if the evidence supporting the charge against the accused is conclusive.

The victim is a witness, not a party at the trial. That is where it would be appropriate, in my opinion, to suggest major changes to the spirit of the Criminal Code and to court proceedings. That is what the Reform Party should say if it is sincere in its motion.

Either the system remains as designed and victims continue to play the role of ordinary witnesses at trials, or the victim becomes a party in the proceedings. That is the true problem: victims as witnesses or as parties at the trial.

I am convinced that we will not start a real debate on improving the lot of victims before the courts unless we make a radical choice between these two conceptions of the criminal justice system. Either the criminal trial remains a judicial inquiry where evidence is presented against the accused, whom a judge or a jury must find guilty or acquit after hearing the defence.

Traditionally, the two opposing parties are the public prosecutor and the accused. Each party calls its witnesses who, in principle, are total strangers and independent in the case.

In this system, the victim must testify on the events he or she experienced, mainly to identify the accused as the one who committed the crime.

Once the evidence is presented, the accused is found guilty only if there is no reasonable doubt about the essential facts

with which he is charged. That is our system. In most cases, it works when the evidence is conclusive.

There is an alternative to this system which has reached its limits. We could now allow the victim to be a civil party in a criminal trial. If I understand what is behind the concerns expressed by the Reform Party, I believe that such a proposal would win immediate support from most of the public. I can very well imagine a victim participating actively in a criminal trial in support of the accusation, making representations on the sentence and demanding full monetary compensation for the material and physical damage suffered.

In France, for example, the victim can be a civil party for such purposes and I do not see why we could not amend our criminal legislation to permit an active presence of all interested parties in a trial.

The victim could be represented by lawyers, produce his or her own witnesses, question and cross-examine those brought by the Crown and by the defence, plead on the evidence presented, suggest the sentence or take part in negotiations; in short, participate in the whole judicial process and even appeal any judgement.

We found out the wording of the Reform Party's motion only late yesterday afternoon. I would have liked a little more research on the subject of the motion, but I excuse the Reform Party because I believe that the motion was improvised and made up just hours before. We will agree that it only conveys a vague criticism of the whole judicial system and of the underlying legislation.

Still, I must admit that this slapdash motion gives us an opportunity to propose a major change in the spirit of criminal law to the government. I believe that the victim cannot be a mere passive witness outside the proceedings in which he or she should be a full participant, like the accused.

I think that if people feel that criminals are better treated than their victims by the courts, this perception is largely due to their exclusion from the proceedings.

Supply March 17th, 1994

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will not have time to finish, but I will continue, nonetheless. I would have liked to see the Reform Party give an objective speech. I would have liked it to focus not only on the public's dissatisfaction which itself is aroused, fuelled and sustained by the media which regards the public as someone it can easily win over. The public, whether rightly or wrongly, has a negative view of the protection which the courts afford victims of crime. It would be easy to go on and on about public sentiment, but we are being remiss in our duty as elected representatives when we use this dissatisfaction for purely political purposes.

When they speak about victims, why do Reform Party members fail to mention that the purpose of the criminal courts is not to arrange compensation for victims, but, first and foremost, to punish the guilty, according to the applicable rules of law?

Mr. Speaker, I see that you are about to rise.

Supply March 17th, 1994

And as the hon. member just said, winter is not over yet.

According to this motion, we should reform the whole criminal justice system. Does the Reform Party know why it wants this reform? Does it have any alternatives to suggest? What does it not like about the system? We all have complaints about the judicial system. Saying the system is not perfect is one thing, but to say it should be overhauled, without suggesting any alternatives, is something else altogether.

Does the Reform Party want to change our penal laws and the Criminal Code? Does it want to change the powers of the Minister of Justice, of our judges and lawyers? Is it dissatisfied with the procedure in the courts? Does it want to abolish the presumption of innocence? What does it want, Mr. Speaker? We do not know, and I really wonder whether the Reform Party has a single constructive idea on the subject.

If I understood the motion correctly, it raises the whole issue of the rights of criminals as opposed to the rights of their victims. Here again, the Reform Party is echoing public dissatisfaction. I think this House should remind them of certain facts and explain some of the centuries-old principles of our criminal law. For better or for worse, since the Magna Carta, Canada, the United States and all democracies that adhere to the British system of law have enshrined certain incontrovertible rules in their laws and judicial systems.

The Reform Party is actually blaming the government for five centuries of Western jurisprudence. This may enhance their prestige with people who listen uncritically to what they have to say, but it is a clear demonstration of ignorance taken to rhetorical heights.

The presumption of innocence, to start with this absolute of our criminal law, protects and, unfortunately, will continue to protect for many centuries, all criminals in society. Our laws oblige the police arm of the state to prove that an accused person is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. The Reform Party cannot change this. It is the basis of our criminal law. Fortunately, that same rule of law also protects the honest citizen who is accused by the state.

When we say rule of law, we also mean procedural fairness for all accused persons. Our civilized society does not condone lynching. At one time, in some parts of America, people were hanged on mere suspicion. People wanted a conviction at any price, so they took the law into their own hands, committing murder in the process. In these societies, the presumption of innocence, reasonable doubt, due process and the right to a fair trial were concepts as foreign as cellular telephones. Sometimes I wonder, when I hear this kind of motion, whether its movers realize we are more living in the era of the cellular telephone.

The right to a fair trial is enshrined in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If the Reform Party wants to withdraw the fundamental constitutional document of this country, let it say so, and we will have an interesting debate on the kind of society we want. I am not sure Canadians are prepared to tear up the Charter, which represents what is universal in our society. How many citizens would follow the Reform Party in a crusade against the Charter? I think all the converts to this new religion would comfortably fit into a telephone booth.

I agree that our democracy pays a very high price for protecting fundamental rights and democratic freedoms. I am as upset as the next person about abuses of a judicial system that is often defeated by criminals who are aware that its weaknesses are in direct proportion to the generous principles by which it is guided. I know that murderers, rapists and swindlers manage to

survive because they are able to take advantage of the rules of law that protect them as they protect all honest citizens. However, the Reform Party should have checked certain statistics, and especially one that is very reassuring. In this country, nine out of ten accused plead guilty or are found guilty. Ten per cent of accused persons are acquitted, and I am sure that even if any of these were guilty, the rule of law helped to prevent conviction of the innocent. That is democracy, Mr. Speaker.

The Reform Party should have made certain distinctions in its motion and subsequent presentation. It should have told Canadians that the Criminal Code and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act are two different things. It should have said that the Criminal Code cannot be any stricter than it already is. If the judge does not impose the maximum sentence provided under the Criminal Code, as often happens, his judgment is dictated by the circumstances. Every case before the court is different, and judges have wide discretion in sentencing a person who has been found guilty.

We cannot say that the system gives criminals an unfair advantage in this respect. The police and the Crown prosecutors do their best with the resources they have. The courts hand down judgements. They are the judicial arm of the government. They are, and must remain, independent. When a judge hands down a judgement, he speaks as the judiciary power, not as the government. That is another fact that is often overlooked.

I believe our Criminal Code is an effective instrument in the fight against crime. It will be amended again and as often as required by changing circumstances, but it reflects a contemporary social consensus on what constitutes reprehensible behaviour.

Once the sentence has been handed down, it is no longer the criminal justice system, but the Correctional Service, which is responsible for the individual who has been found guilty and sentenced to a prison term. I do not know if the Reform Party is calling for the repeal of the legislation governing the Correctional Service of Canada, but, hey, why not. And since we are considering reviewing all of the legislation governing the criminal justice system, why not simply throw everything out and start over, using the brilliant ideas of the right wing which is all-knowing since it has a direct line to God Almighty.

I would have liked to see the Reform Party deliver an enlightened and motivating speech, a speech inspired by a serious review of the shortcomings of our criminal justice system. Yet, even when she expresses compassion for the fate of victims, the hon. member who presented the motion is using a well-worn argument. The hon. member could have pointed out that the Criminal Code allows a judge to order the guilty party to compensate his victim. He can do so at the moment of sentencing by ordering the persons found guilty to reimburse to the victim an amount equal to the value of the material damage suffered. The judge can also order the guilty person, in a probation order, to compensate his victim for bodily harm inflicted. The courts have these powers. They are in the legislation. We can only encourage the system to use them.

Mr. Speaker, do I have time to continue?