Bill C-377 (Historical)

Climate Change Accountability Act

An Act to ensure Canada assumes its responsibilities in preventing dangerous climate change

The purpose of this enactment is to ensure that
Canada meets its global climate change obligations
under the United Nations Framework Convention
on Climate Change by committing to a long-term
target to reduce Canadian greenhouse gas emissions
to a level that is 80% below the 1990 level by
the year 2050, and by establishing interim targets for the
period 2015 to 2045. It creates an obligation on
the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable
Development to review proposed measures to meet the
targets and submit a report to Parliament.
It also sets out the duties of the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Yes, thank you.

I appreciate Mr. Cullen's comments, but in fact I am speaking specifically to clause 10. I'm not going to read clause 10, because we've already done that and we all have clause 10 in front of us.

What we see definitely missing in Bill C-377 is the absence of what I'm presenting. Canada has a regulatory framework called the Turning the Corner plan, and this is missing in Bill C-377. We heard from the witnesses that it won't accomplish anything, because there's nothing there to accomplish.

In Canada, we already have the Turning the Corner plan, which sets the toughest targets in Canadian history. Mr. Cullen has asked for the target. So I'll remind him that it's 20% by 2020, which is the toughest target in Canadian history, and 60% to 70% reduction, absolute reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, by 2050. It's never happened before. We've never had such targets in Canadian history, but it's happening now.

The first review will be in 2012. Under the proposed greenhouse gas regulations, firms will have several options to take in meeting their legal obligations. Ideally, firms will reduce their own emissions through abatement actions such as energy efficiency measures, improved energy management systems, and deployment of carbon capture and storage or other emission-reducing technologies.

Are we seeing any of that in Bill C-377? No, we're not. In the Turning the Corner plan, there will be limited access to other compliance mechanisms. First, firms could meet their compliance obligations through contributions to a technology fund. That's good. Bill C-377 mentions the technology fund, which already exists in the Turning the Corner plan.

Secondly, they will have access to emissions trading, including inter-firm trading, emission reduction credits for non-regulated activities, and qualified credits from the Kyoto Protocol's CDMs, or clean development mechanisms. This is missing in Bill C-377. They have a bit about market-based mechanisms such as emission trading and offsets, but we already have that in Canada's Turning the Corner plan. So Bill C-377 is redundant. The few tools the bill mentions are already in the Turning the Corner plan. Maybe they're copying the plan.

Also, there will be a one-time recognition of firms that took early verified action between 1992 and 2006 to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. Is that in Bill C-377? No, it's missing and it shouldn't be missing. Well, maybe it should be, because maybe we don't need Bill C-377.

Finally, linkages to the North America emissions trading system will be actively pursued. Over time, as the international carbon market becomes more developed and robust, and as emissions verification and reporting systems evolve further, government will consider further international linkages. All this is missing from Bill C-377.

It's important to have a plan that will be effective. This is the warning that the witnesses were giving us about Bill C-377. I'm going into details that may seem a little long, but details are important in a plan that will be effective. You can't just have ineffective targets like those of the Liberals—13 years of not getting it done. But we now have a plan. It has all changed. We have a plan that is effective in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. It's an effective plan. But we all have to actively participate and do our part and not come up with phony bills that aren't going to do anything. That's what we heard from the witnesses.

Over time, as the international carbon market becomes robust, you will see Canada taking an active part. Canadian business and industry will actively participate in trading in the carbon market, which will begin in Canada. We're glad it's going to be based in Montreal. I think Mr. Bigras is happy about that too. Canadians are. It's the market that's decided where that's going to be. It's in Montreal. It's part of our regulatory framework. Canadians need this dependability to be able to begin the trading regime. And it began because we have a Turning the Corner plan.

Bill C-377 would turn the clock back. It's a plan with no substance, no meat on the bones, and it would destroy the good inertia to clean up the environment that we now see in Canada. Bill C-377 is definitely a bad idea.

Technological advancement and innovation are critical to achieving significant long-term reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. New technologies, both under development and ready for deployment, provide a means to transform Canada's industrial production and thereby significantly reduce emissions. I'll refer again to Mr. Harvey's example of the number of tonnes of carbon dioxide that are created by producing a tonne of aluminum. One tonne of aluminum in Canada produces four tonnes of carbon dioxide; in China it's seven tonnes. So where should the aluminum be made if we're seriously concerned about the environment? With Canadian technology, those four tonnes of carbon dioxide will be reduced, and I believe reduced substantially.

That's just one example of one manufactured product that needs to be developed with the cleanest technologies, and that's why we need to get all the major emitters as part of the solution. Canada is doing its part, and those technologies are being developed in Canada.

Under the Turning the Corner plan--not under Bill C-377, which is missing all these details--firms would be able to meet part of their regulatory obligations to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by contributing to the technology fund. This fund would provide more than just a compliance mechanism for industry; it would act as an important means for promoting the development, the deployment, and the diffusion of the technologies that reduce emissions of greenhouse gases across the industry. Again, that is missing from Bill C-377.

A third party entity would be created to administer the technology fund. Is that in Bill C-377? No. This would be an independent, not-for-profit entity administered by a board of directors composed of individuals originating from industry, federal and provincial governments, and other stakeholders. It would operate under a federal mandate. Again, it's missing with Bill C-377. Is it an important tool that needs to be part of an effective plan that will see absolute reductions in greenhouse gas emissions? Absolutely, but it's missing in Bill C-377. It's not part of any of the amendments either. It's missing in clause 10 of Bill C-377.

The process of determining the allocation for funding to projects and the legislative authority, governance, and administration of the fund has to be developed, and it is being developed. The design of the fund will respect two basic principles: no inter-regional transfer of wealth and no government control. These are very important items, and again there are no details of anything like that in Bill C-377. It's missing a very important tool for industry.

Before finalizing the structure of the fund, the government will work with the provinces and territories, as well as the sectors, to determine the appropriate disbursements of the fund, taking into consideration the development and employment of technologies that would be used by sectors with facilities across the country and provincial initiatives that support the development of technology to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and potentially the air pollutants as well. Again, there are the dual benefits. Does Bill C-377 talk about those dual benefits? No, it doesn't. Should Bill C-377 talk about dual benefits for the health of Canadians and the health of our planet? Yes, it should, and they're missing. It's a big mistake and it's one of the problems with Bill C-377.

Again with reference to the technology fund, other funds that meet all necessary requirements could be certified to qualify as part of the regulatory framework. In particular, provincial funds that are consistent with the federal fund could be recognized as equivalent through working with the provinces. It's very important to have that.

The fund would primarily be used to fund investments that have a high likelihood of yielding greenhouse gas emission reductions in the short term. The primary focus will be funding technology deployment and related infrastructure projects. Carbon capture and storage is one of the most promising technologies for reducing greenhouse gas emissions associated with a broad array of industrial activities, and I don't want to go over again the importance of carbon capture and storage, but I believe the other country that has that technology is Norway. The amount of carbon it captures and pumps into a geological formation in the water from a platform is, I believe, about half as much as at the Weyburn, Saskatchewan, plant. We've had our plant in Weyburn pumping carbon dioxide into geological formations for the longest time of any plant in the world. It's the biggest in the world. It's about twice the size of that in Norway, I believe.

What happens is that carbon dioxide can be stored. It becomes limestone over the years. It solidifies into the rocks. When you first inject it into the strata that are holding the oil, it creates an increased viscosity for the oil. The oil is not in a big pool; it's impregnated in the rocks, and as you inject the water and the carbon dioxide into that strata, the viscosity of the oil is increased. So oil fields that weren't active anymore, like those in Weyburn, now become productive oil fields again. That carbon dioxide and water is recovered then and reinjected back in along with the enhanced oil recovery.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

It is clause 10. I'm sharing the importance of having targets that are realistic and that are achievable. The difficulty we've had with Bill C-377 is that there are targets that haven't been costed.

We've asked Mr. Cullen if he would accept a motion, but we haven't made a motion. I was just testing the waters: would he accept having it costed, as recommended by the witnesses? The instructions he has from his leader now are not to have that, which is disappointing. The Commissioner of the Environment advised that there be an analysis. This is what we heard from every witness group. Of course, the NDP, after introducing the bill and recommending that it be costed, is now suggesting that they don't want Parliament to be making a decision based on facts; they want emotional targets.

We agree that we need to set the toughest targets in Canadian history, and we have done that. Our Turning the Corner plan does that. It builds on intensity targets, and within a very short period of time, by 2012, we have absolute reductions coming. By 2020 we'll have absolute reductions of 20%, again the toughest in Canadian history.

We heard from the witnesses previously that intensity isn't bad; what's important is how tough those intensity targets are. Of course, they are mandatory, concrete intensity targets that will result in absolute reductions, which is good news for Canada and good news for the world. The targets will also make a vital contribution to the government's commitment to reduce the national absolute greenhouse gases by 20% by 2020.

The government is introducing the toughest action in greenhouse gases ever proposed by a Canadian government. The government's emission intensity targets are 6% more stringent, at 18%, than the emission intensity targets proposed on July 16, 2005, at only 12%. Unlike the 2005 proposal, our Turning the Corner plan also requires annual improvements in emission intensity of 2%, meaning that by 2015, a 26% emission intensity improvement will be required under this plan. It's huge.

Short-term mandatory reductions in greenhouse gas emissions by sector are defined in terms of reductions in emission intensity from their emission intensity in 2006. That's the base year.

Each country has its own unique circumstances. Globally, everybody needs to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, as we all agree, hopefully; some may not. The reality is that everybody has to do their part globally or greenhouse gas emissions will continue to rise. We need to get all the major emitters, including the United States, India, and China, reducing their emissions too.

Greenhouse gas emissions per unit of production are capped under our plan. We don't hear any details in Bill C-377. It's unfortunately missing any details. We heard that from the witnesses. All they are, are targets, with no idea how they are going to be achieved. The NDP leader, Mr. Layton, equated it to building a railway, with no idea how he was going to do it, but he had a dream.

Our plan, the plan, which will be effective and is already being effective in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, has the units of production capped. The regulatory release limit for individual facilities within a given sector that will be needed to achieve this overall percentage reduction will be determined as part of the process to develop the detailed regulations.

The emission intensity approach ties targets to production. This means that firms will not be able to claim emission reduction credits by shutting down production for environmental reasons or obtain credits for moving production out of Canada. Rather, credits can only be earned through cleaner production. More importantly, these rigorous targets will yield absolute reductions, even as the economy grows. As the World Resources Institute noted in a 2006 report, “For environmental performance, what matters overall is that targets are set at reasonably stringent levels and subsequently are met. This may be achieved with absolute or intensity targets.”

Again, this is what we see missing in Bill C-377--no details, no direction, no substance on how their targets can be achieved, no costing, and no impact analysis.

The approach for determining the emission intensity targets for each sector in the Turning the Corner plan is based on an improvement of 6% each year from 2007 to 2010. This yields an initial required reduction of 18% from 2006 levels in 2010, the year the proposed greenhouse gas regulations would come into full force. Every year thereafter, a 2% continuous improvement on emission intensity would be required. By 2015, therefore, a reduction in emission intensity of 26% from 2006 levels would be mandated. This basic approach will be applied to existing facilities in each industrial sector.

The 18% emission intensity reduction calculation applies only to combustion and non-fixed-process emissions. Regulatory release limits per unit of output for existing facilities would reflect this.

Predefined fixed-process emissions would have a zero percent reduction in emission intensity from 2006 levels in 2010. Fixed-process emissions are emissions tied to production for which there is no alternative reduction technology. The only way to reduce these emissions is to reduce production. Processes that are currently considered fixed may not be considered fixed in the future if technologies or processes are developed that could reduce or capture and store the emissions. At the sectoral level, the share of total emissions that are fixed-process emissions varies. For each sector, the basic approach will be an 18% reduction from the 2006 levels in 2010, with continuous improvement in emission intensity thereafter.

Fixed-process emissions will have to be determined on the basis of the characteristics of firms and sectors. To provide sufficient time for the facilities to reach normal operating levels, new facilities will be granted a three-year grace period before they have to meet an emission intensity reduction target. After the third year, the initial greenhouse gas emission intensity target will be based on cleaner fuel standards. New facilities will also be required to improve their emission intensity by 2% each year, as do existing facilities. New facilities are defined as those whose first year of operation is 2004 or later.

The three-year grace period means that no improvements are expected in the first three years of operation, and no target will apply during these years. Targets begin to apply in the fourth year of operation, even if that year is before 2010. For example, a facility that began operation in 2005 will begin to face a target in 2008, based on its emission intensity performance in 2007 and on the application of the cleaner fuel standard. A flexible approach to implementation will be taken in those special cases where the equipment used in a plant facilitates carbon capture and storage or another technology offering significant potential for emission reductions.

The approach I've just described is the one that will be applicable across the full range of industrial sectors. Specific sectoral issues will be considered in developing the regulations, but all resulting emission reductions must be equivalent to those resulting from the general approach.

The continuous improvement of 2% in a sector's emission intensity would be applied through 2020. As I noted, there would be a review of the regulatory framework, including targets, every five years. The first review would take place in 2012. This is what's missing in--

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I am speaking to clause 10. What I said for a second time was not to repeat but to emphasize the importance of the fact that we need absolute reductions. And you phase in absolute reductions, starting with intensity, with very severe, tough intensity targets. This is all missing in Bill C-377.

Clause 10 says that....

Mr. Chair, I want to explain the relevance of clause 10. Do I have your permission to read clause 10 again?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. It's always good to talk about the environment.

Mr. Rodriguez is here. We have some new faces.

Anyway, the government will validate the benchmarked air pollution targets over the next several months. The government will work with industry, the provinces and territories, labour, and environmental and health groups during the validation process. The regulatory framework for air pollutants—that is, the targets, the compliance mechanisms, and the timetable for the entry into force of the regulations—will be finalized in the fall of 2007, which it was, and after the government has validated the benchmarked air pollutant targets.

While this validation process is under way, we've developed sector-specific regulations for the general provisions and those related to greenhouse gases, leading to publication of the draft regulations in Canada Gazette, Part I, in the spring of 2008. The regulations will be revised to incorporate the air pollutant provisions a few months later, following normal regulatory procedures.

So it takes time for a regulation to be implemented, and that whole process has begun. For those who weren't here, it's a process that is already having positive effects.

What's being proposed by Bill C-377, we know, will not have effects. It is, again, one of those announcements with no substance. Yet the government, with our Turning the Corner plan, does have a regulatory process that will see absolute reductions of 20% by 2020, and 60% to 70% by 2050—the toughest in Canadian history and one of the toughest in the world.

The government will monitor the evolving regulatory framework as the regulations are developed and implemented over the two years and will make adjustments as needed.

In addition, the government is committed to reviewing the regulations on industrial air emissions every five years in order to assess progress in reaching medium- and long-term emission reduction objectives. The first such review would take place in 2012. The review would entail an assessment of the effectiveness of measures taken to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and air pollutants, and of advances in industrial technology—energy production, industrial processes, and pollution abatement—in order to determine the potential for further emissions reductions consistent with the goal of continuous improvement. The review would also examine the state of air quality and possible changes in the Canadian industrial sector mix, including regional changes, that could affect the goal of achieving tangible benefits for the health of Canadians and the environment.

The federal government will set stringent national standards and will work to reach equivalency agreements with those provinces that set provincial emissions standards that are at least as stringent as the federal standards. We're already seeing that happening. Equivalency agreements will allow provincial leadership, while ensuring a national level of health and environmental protection—again, strong federal leadership.

You don't see that in Bill C-377. You see, again, the whole structure, as Mr. Vellacott said, built on a very shaky foundation. You see now, with the Turning the Corner plan, a very clear, strong mandatory regulatory framework that is already having positive effects for Canada's environment and for the global environment. As the proposed federal regulations are developed, the government intends to work with provinces and territories to avoid, as much as possible, any duplication and to ensure consistency in the way in which regulations are applied, again respecting provincial jurisdiction. We heard from the witnesses that Bill C-377 would give broad and unlimited powers to the federal government over the provinces.

Now, I was quite sure that the Bloc would then not support Bill C-377, but they did. They've made some amendments, but they do not want to hear from any witnesses to find out if their amendments are effective. Of course, our government wants to respect provincial jurisdictional responsibilities and authorities. In our regulatory framework of the Turning the Corner plan, it's very clear that we are proposing a plan that does respect provincial jurisdiction. It's already happening. It's already having a positive effect, and Bill C-377 would take us far from that. That's what many of the witnesses were indicating.

Most provinces restrict the emissions of air pollutants; however, standards vary considerably across the country. Alberta has also recently released draft regulations to reduce industrial greenhouse gas emissions in its territory. Since the federal government recognizes the important role played by the provinces and territories and their management, work will be undertaken with interested provinces and territories to make the best use possible of equivalency agreements. When an equivalency agreement has been reached, the Governor in Council can suspend the application of the specified CEPA 1999 regulations in the signing province so that only the equivalent provincial regime applies. That's good. The federal Minister of the Environment remains responsible for reporting annually to Parliament in the administration of the CEPA 1999 provisions that permit these equivalency agreements.

Again you have the minister reporting directly to Parliament--another good part of Turning the Corner. CEPA 1999 authorizes the minister to enter into an equivalency agreement with a province, territory, or aboriginal government if the minister and the other jurisdictions' governments demonstrate that there are provisions in force in that jurisdiction that meet or exceed the equivalent level of environmental protection mandated by the federal regulations in force, and include rights similar to those prescribed in sections 17 to 20 of CEPA 1999--the right of citizens to request an investigation of alleged offences under the other jurisdictions' legislation. We see this missing in Bill -377--sweeping powers, unlimited powers over the provinces, which is not in the provincial interest--and also we heard clearly that there would be a constitutional challenge. Yet we have already in place a respecting of those provincial jurisdictions in the Turning the Corner plan.

And clearly we have taken action already with the toughest targets in Canadian history, and that is very preferential to Bill -377, which we have heard is actually a hollow and phony bill.

Provincial enforcement certificates of approval, or permitting, or licensing systems can be recognized as a basis for an equivalency agreement. Once an equivalency agreement is negotiated, the Governor in Council may make an order declaring that the provisions of CEPA 1999 regulation that are the subject of the equivalency agreement do not apply in the jurisdiction of a particular province, territory, or aboriginal government with which the agreement has been negotiated. The result is that the regulation, or a portion of it, would stand down, leaving the subject matter of CEPA 1999 regulation to be governed by the laws of the province, territory, or aboriginal government with which the agreement was negotiated.

Regarding short-term emission intensity targets, the government has put in place a short-term emission intensity reduction target that will come into force in 2010. These targets will result in absolute reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases from industry as soon as 2010 and no later than 2012.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you.

For greenhouse gases, the framework sets a 2010 implementation date for emission intensity reduction targets. For air pollutants, the framework sets fixed emission caps that will enter into force as soon as possible between 2012 and 2015.

In order to minimize cost to industry and the impact in the economy, the framework contains compliance mechanisms intended to provide industry with flexibility in meeting its regulatory options.

The framework also requires rigorous monitoring and reporting in order to ensure compliance, assessment, and transparency.

These are all ingredients that are missing in Bill C-377. There is no costing. There is nothing on the framework. There are just international targets, with no costing and direction as to how Canada can achieve those targets.

As you can see, the Turning the Corner plan does include that--a costing, a framework, consultation, and a realistic plan that is already seeing positive results.

The short-term targets are expressed as reductions from the 2006 levels. To support the development and implementation of regulations, comprehensive and consistent baseline data for 2006 will be required from facilities in the regulated sectors. To this end, the government will require that facilities in those sectors that will be covered by the regulations report 2006 emissions and other relevant data under a notice issued under section 71 of CEPA 1999. That is also at work, and industry is required to report by the end of May of this year.

This is another example of the regulatory process happening. It's exciting, Chair, to see it actually happening. After years of inaction, this government is getting it done.

Are the bells ringing?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

It's a good-news story.

Did the Bloc support extending the public transit credit to different types of public transit, enhancing public transit? No. Did the NDP support that? No. We have a very serious trend here, where the Bloc and the NDP are not supporting environmental programs.

We provided funding to protect Canada's natural heritage, including $225 million for conserving ecologically sensitive lands and $110 million for protecting species at risk. Surely the Bloc would have supported that. They didn't. Did the NDP support that? No.

Our plan included $22 million over the next two years to strengthen environmental enforcement. You can make laws, but if you don't enforce them you are not going to have an effect. Volunteerism only works to a point. You need to have mandatory regulatory framework and it has to be enforced. Did the Bloc support enforcing the environmental laws of Canada? Did the NDP support that? No.

We provided $92 million over two years to improve the water that Canadians drink, to clean polluted water, to protect ecosystems, and to ensure the sustainability of Canada's fish resources. We included over $200 million in funding to renew the Canadian Coast Guard fleet and support fisheries, science, and research. Again, the Bloc and the NDP did not support that. Canadians wonder why not.

These initiatives will deliver real results while industrial regulations are developing, and will promote the technology innovation required to support upcoming regulations. In addition, these initiatives include the regulations to set Canada on the road to making real progress toward its Kyoto commitments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The real reductions in emissions that will be drawn by the regulations, coupled with the impact of both the non-regulatory actions above and the ambitious new initiatives being taken by provincial and territorial governments, mean that Canada's greenhouse gas emissions from all sources are expected to begin to decline as early as 2010. My colleagues brought that to the committee's attention. It's already happening. The environment is already cleaning up. We're getting it done.

I think it was Mr. Cullen who said that their focus has been on trying to get the government to fail. It's not working. The government is moving forward. We have a regulatory plan, a Turning the Corner plan that is already seeing results. Therefore absolute emissions continue to decline.

The government is committed to reducing Canada's total emissions of greenhouse gases by 20% by 2020, and by 60% to 70% by 2050. The government supports the Kyoto process--I think I'm hearing an echo here--and actions at home that will be the basis for Canada's participation in future international cooperative efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions globally. We've seen our minister, John Baird, do an incredible job making sure the post-Kyoto negotiations were successful in Indonesia.

We all need to do our part. Greenhouse gas emissions are affecting Canada. We're already seeing the results of a warming climate in Canada, but we're also seeing it globally. Canada is doing its part and taking that leadership that was not there for a number of years. We're also encouraging all the international major emitters to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

At this point, 30% of the major greenhouse gas emitters are part of the Kyoto agreement. We need everybody to be willing to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, and that's what we're pushing for. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see everybody signing on and agreeing to a post-Kyoto target that included all the major emitters agreeing to reduce their greenhouse gases? And Canada is providing that leadership.

Significant long-term progress on greenhouse gases and air pollutants will be realized only through the development, commercialization, and employment of new, cleaner energy and transportation technologies, and through the active participation of all Canadians and all aspects of Canadian society. The government recognizes the need to work with all consumers, with industry and the provinces and the territories, to move forward to implement this aggressive plan. All Canadians will need to do their part to reduce greenhouse gases and air pollution to help protect their health and their environment.

On October 21, 2006, our government published a notice of intent that imposed an integral, nationally consistent approach to the regulation of greenhouse gases and air pollutant emissions in order to protect the health and the environment of Canadians. Because greenhouse gases and air pollutants share many common sources, the coordination of requirements will allow firms to make cost-effective decisions to maximize synergies in reducing their emissions. As you reduce the amount of greenhouse gases being emitted, you often are reducing the pollutants that are also going in the air, for the benefit of the health of Canadians. And in our Turning the Corner plan, we have a reduction in air pollutants in half by 2015—a very short period of time. These are huge, aggressive targets that will be achieved for the health of Canadians.

The government has signalled its determination to address greenhouse gases and air pollutants from key sources and has outlined a regulatory agenda for industrial sources, and transportation and consumer and commercial products, for more stringent energy efficiency standards and improved indoor air quality. The government is committed to these targets of a 20% reduction by 2020, and 60% to 70% by 2050.

Environmental protection is an area of shared jurisdiction between the federal and the provincial and territorial governments. The federal government has clear jurisdiction to regulate air emissions in order to protect the environment and the health of Canadians. The government recognizes the importance of endeavouring, in cooperation with the provinces and territories and aboriginal peoples, to achieve the highest level of environmental quality for all Canadians.

The provinces have taken important action to reduce air pollution emissions in their own jurisdictions. However, national consistency is necessary to provide a minimum level of air quality for all Canadians to ensure a level playing field and to protect the competitiveness of our Canadian industry in different regions by avoiding a patchwork of different regulations being applied to the same industrial sectors.

My colleague Mr. Harvey has brought up the point a number of times that the production of one tonne of aluminum produces four tonnes of carbon dioxide when it's produced in Canada, but in China it's seven. And with growing technology, my hope is that the four tonnes will be reduced more and more. So we need to make sure it's Canadian technology, the very best of technology, being used for aluminum too.

An integrated, nationally consistent approach will enable firms to reduce their emissions in an efficient and cost-effective manner. Again, Canada has to stay competitive. We don't want jobs leaving Canada; we want jobs in Canada. We want Canadian technology used to benefit the world globally for greenhouse gas emission reductions. The federal government has never—never—regulated emissions of greenhouse gases or air pollutants across industries before. This is the first government in Canadian history to do this.

For industrial sources, the October 2006 notice of intent to regulate indicated that the government would introduce a framework for short-term targets and compliance options by the spring of 2007. In the transportation sector, the Prime Minister reaffirmed, in his speech on February 6, 2007, that for the first time ever Canada's new government would regulate the fuel efficiency of motor vehicles, beginning with the 2011 model year. That's three years from now.

There's currently a memorandum of understanding between the auto industry and the government with a target of 5.3 megatonnes of greenhouse gas emission reductions by 2010. That will be regulated for the 2011 model year, and the memorandum of understanding will end. The government will build on this agreement to establish an ambitious regulated fuel efficiency standard for the 2011 model benchmarked against a stringent dominant North American standard. That's good news. We need to have a level playing field, we need a clean environment, and it needs to be by regulation, and that is happening.

The government is also developing and will implement regulations to reduce smog- and acid-rain-forming emissions from vehicles, engines, and fuels. It will take action to reduce emissions from other modes of transportation, including rail, aviation, and marine. I live on the west coast, and marine is a very big contributor to greenhouse gas emissions and air pollution, and our government is taking action on that.

The government is developing regulations that strengthen energy efficiency standards and labelling requirements for consumer and commercial products. The government is also developing, for the first time, a comprehensive regulatory agenda that will address indoor air quality--the first government to do that.

The goal of these actions is to improve significantly and measurably the health of Canadians and the environment by reducing greenhouse gas emissions and air pollutants.

Since the publication of the notice of intent in October, work has been ongoing on each of these priorities. The process you go through to end up with regulations has begun, and it began in October 2006. Two draft regulations in the transportation sector to reduce smog-forming pollutants from vehicles and engines have been published in the Canada Gazette. Work has also begun on a series of amendments to the energy efficiency regulations.

As I indicated in the notice of intent, an integrated approach to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and air pollutants has been taken to maximize the benefits to the health of all Canadians and to the environment. In the notice of intent, the government committed to develop and implement an integrated, nationally consistent approach to the regulation of industrial air emissions.

As you can see, Chair, what I am speaking to relates directly to clause 10 of Bill C-377. In November and December of 2006, extensive consultations were undertaken with the provinces and territories, industry, aboriginal groups, and health and environmental groups on elements of the proposed approach and the development of the regulatory framework. A companion document was published to further elaborate and present elements and options for consultation. These consultations and the public comments received in response to the notice of intent have informed the development of the regulatory framework.

The regulations will mandate reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases and air pollutants from the following industrial sectors: electricity; electricity generation produced by combustion; oil and gas, including upstream; oil and gas, downstream; petroleum; oil sands; and the natural gas pipelines.

Chair, we have a vote happening. I have much more that I'd like to share, and that's why I didn't believe we would complete today. I think we could complete it in another day.

At this point I would move that we adjourn.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Yes, we are, thank you.

Clause 10 says:

10. (1) On or before May 31 of each year, the Minister shall prepare a statement setting out (a) the measures taken by the Government of Canada to ensure that its commitment under section 5 and the targets set out in the target plan are being met, including measures taken in respect of (i) regulated emission limits and performance standards, (ii) market-based mechanisms such as emissions trading or offsets, (iii) spending or fiscal incentives, including a just transition fund for industry, and (iv) cooperation or agreements with provinces, territories or other governments; and (b) the Canadian greenhouse gas emission reductions that are reasonably expected to result from each of those measures in each of the next ten years; and (c) the level of Canadian greenhouse gas emissions in each of the following ten years to be used as a baseline to quantify the reductions referred to in paragraph (b).

That's exactly what I'm speaking to, Chair, and that is clause 10.

The Minister of Natural Resources and Alberta's Minister of Energy have commissioned a Canada-Alberta ecoENERGY Carbon Capture and Storage Task Force. The task force is made up of CEOs from the oil, power, and pipeline industries, as well as a member of the academic community. It's been tasked with examining the opportunities for the large-scale application of carbon capture and storage technology in Canada. Based on that examination, the task force will provide a comprehensive set of options describing how government and industry can work together to take advantage of those opportunities. In carbon capture and storage technology, Canada is the world leader.

When we were in Germany, I asked if there has been a mapping of geological formations globally. We were told, no, each country is going to be responsible for that. But Canada has taken that leadership in carbon capture and storage, and we have that model in Weyburn, Saskatchewan. It's very important that we not continue to dump carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. We need to capture it. That's going to be happening on new projects in the oil sands, and it will also be required for new coal-fired electric generating plants.

We also look forward to Ontario shutting down those coal-fired plants and building these new electric-fired plants with carbon capture and storage, and I'm sure Mr. McGuinty is looking forward to that too.

On March 19, 2007, just a year ago, our government further demonstrated its commitment to environmental action to provide health and environmental benefits to Canadians by allocating $4.5 billion in budget 2007 for initiatives to reduce greenhouse gases and their pollution, as well as water conservation enforcement initiatives. These initiatives included the following: $1.5 billion for the trust fund for clean air and climate change, a new national trust fund that provides financial support for provincial and territorial government projects that will result in real reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and air pollutants. Did the Bloc support that? No. Did the NDP support that? No.

It included a rebalancing of the tax system to encourage investments in the oil sands and other sectors in clean and renewable energy, while phasing out the accelerated capital cost allowance put in by the previous Liberal government for the oil sands development. Did the Bloc support that? No. Did the NDP support that? No.

It also included an extension to 2020 for existing tax incentives for clean energy production and an expansion of the eligibility to cover wave and tidal energy, as well as additional solar energy and waste-to-energy technologies. Surely the Bloc would have supported that. Did they support it? No. Did the NDP support that? No.

We also funded performance-based rebates on vehicles according to their fuel efficiency, with levies on fuel-inefficient vehicles beginning with the 2011 year. Did the Bloc support that? No. Did the NDP support that? No.

We funded $36 million over two years to support programs to get older high-emitting vehicles off the road. It's a good plan. When you get the older vehicles off the road, people then will buy new energy-efficient vehicles. Did the Bloc support that? No. Did the NDP support that? No. They do support Bill C-377, though, which is a bill with no plan and no costing.

Our plan included $2 billion over seven years to support the production of renewable fuels--$1.5 billion for operating incentives for producers of alternate low-emission fuels and $500 million for investing with the private sector in establishing large-scale facilities for the production of next-generation renewable fuels, such as Iogen here in Ottawa--

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

This is called the Regulatory Framework for Air Emissions. This is the Turning the Corner plan.

I think it's important for members of the committee who are supporting Bill C-377 to remember what witnesses have told us, namely, that the bill is missing substance, has jurisdictional issues, and is poorly written. The opposition has tried to rewrite it, but it's a flawed bill. Canada now has a Turning the Corner plan. And this plan will achieve what the committee wants, which is absolute reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

If the committee supports Bill C-377, they obviously are not aware of the good plan that Canada now has. And that's why I was providing some of the highlights of it for the committee.

The government is also taking other action. In the last Speech from the Throne, the government committed to take measures to achieve tangible improvements in our environment, including reductions in pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

Back in 2006, the budget allocated $1.9 billion to initiatives to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and clean up the air Canadians breath. It included a 15.5% tax credit for the purchase of monthly public transit passes. This was meant to encourage individual Canadians and their families to leave their cars at home and take more environmentally sustainable modes of transportation. There was also $1.3 billion for public transit and capital investments.

It's unfortunate that in the last two budgets the Bloc and the NDP voted against providing billions of dollars for public transit, which was quite surprising. I would have thought that they would support those wonderful environmental incentives. But no, they voted against it.

In December 2006, the government announced two key environmental measures. The first was the new chemicals management plan. I was there when we launched it. It was a very exciting day. The plan takes immediate action to regulate chemicals that are harmful to human health or the environment.

Canada was the first country in the world to categorize 23,000 legacy chemical substances. This action has allowed the government to move forward to ensure that chemical substances are handled safely. The government has challenged industry to provide the government with information on how they are safely handling 200 high-priority chemical substances. The government has committed $300 million over five years to implement the chemicals management plan, which is already having positive results.

The government also announced that it would require fuel producers and importers, by 2010, to have an average annual renewable content of at least 5% of the volume of gasolines that they produce or import. There are already gas stations that sell an ethanol content in their fuels, and it helps protect the environment. I encourage people to look for gas stations that sell gasoline with ethanol in it.

Upon successful demonstration of renewable diesel fuel use under Canadian conditions, the government will require an average 2% renewable fuel content in diesel fuel and heating oil by no later than 2012. That's only four years away.

The government also announced funding of $365 million to bolster the development of biofuels and other bio-products. Unfortunately, the Bloc and the NDP voted against this.

These actions will significantly reduce air emissions from the fuel Canadians use to travel, transport goods, and heat their homes. To complement the clean air regulatory agenda, the government will also use targeted incentives and programs that will allow industry and consumers to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and air pollutants.

The ecoENERGY initiatives are there to help Canadians use energy and fuels more efficiently, to boost renewable energy supplies, and to develop cleaner energy technologies. These include programs to offer support and information on retrofits to homeowners and small businesses and organizations--good news--to encourage the construction and retrofit of more energy-efficient buildings and houses, and to accelerate energy savings investments within Canada's industrial sector.

In addition, the Minister of Natural Resources and Alberta's--

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

That's on page 8 of the evidence. My first question is, have you costed your plan? The response from Mr. Layton is that this is a set of targets, and that it will be up to the government of the day. That's this government. Bill C-377 is being considered right now. It's up to the government of the day to advance plans and figure out how we achieve those targets. He's saying it's up to the government to cost it. So it's absolutely accurate.

This is the question that keeps coming up: has it been costed? Mr. Layton said to cost it. It needs to be costed by the government. Mr. Bramley said it needs to be costed.

I went to the testimony of Vicki Pollard from the EU and Mr. James Hughes from the U.K. They recommended that an impact assessment be done before Bill C-377 move forward.

We've heard from every witness group, even the sponsor of the bill, even the person who helped write the bill. I think the question Canadians have is, what has changed? Mr. Layton is saying to do an impact analysis, a costing. And now Mr. Cullen is getting different directions from Mr. Layton. Mr. Layton began by saying to do a costing, and now he's telling Mr. Cullen to tell this committee not to do one. He's telling us not to do one now, to move forward with this bill without knowing what it's going to cost. Well, that's not the way to do things. You need to know whether it's feasible, whether it's been costed. It's very important. This is what we've been advised even from the EU, even from the U.K. Both have recommended an impact analysis.

Mr. Cullen is asking us to move an amendment. I think the analogy that Mr. Vellacott used of trying to build a house on a bad foundation was a good one. I've built a number of houses, and you have to start with a strong foundation. The footings have to be built on solid ground. You dig down to hard pan, or you put in pilings, but you have to have a solid foundation; otherwise it won't stand. We've heard from witness group after witness group that Bill C-377 does not have a good foundation. That's why I'm not moving an amendment on Bill C-377, because it's a badly flawed bill.

The Liberals have provided a number of amendments, as have the Bloc and the NDP. I trust they made those motions in good faith, but we have to get the witnesses back to find out if they came up with a bill that's going to be effective. We don't know that. They want us to move forward without all the information. That's very dangerous.

We have right now Canada's Turning the Corner plan, the regulatory framework on emissions. It is a plan that has been costed. It's a plan that will be effective. It will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 20% by 2020.

We also have absolute reductions in the Turning the Corner plan—60% to 70% by 2050. These are definitely the toughest targets in Canadian history and one of the toughest in the world.

If we had had a plan like this in place by a Conservative government back in the mid-nineties, we definitely would have been able to meet international targets. But we took over in 2006, and we ended up 33% off target. So we have a lot of making up to do. But this government is committed to absolute reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

Commissioner Ron Thompson was here a couple of weeks ago, and the NDP made the startling admission that the opposition's focus has been on trying to make sure the government fails. A comment was made by the NDP, admitting that this is what they've been trying to do, to cause the government to fail. But this government is not failing. The government is moving forward with absolute reductions of greenhouse gas emissions. Why? Because it needs to happen. We cannot permit greenhouse gas emissions to continue to climb in Canada or any other country in the world, and that's why we've taken strong leadership and have a plan that has been costed, that has policy, and that will reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Canada's new government launched an ambitious and realistic agenda to protect the health of Canadians, to improve environmental quality, and to position Canada as a clean energy superpower. The proposed framework is comprehensive and includes mandatory and enforceable reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases and air pollutants. It also engages all Canadians to take significant measurable action at home in Canada.

The reason we focus on both greenhouse gas emissions and pollutants is that pollutants are the cause of death of one in twelve Canadians. Poor air quality has a major impact on the health of Canadians, costing billions of health care dollars and causing a reduction in quality of life, but also one Canadian in twelve dies. That's why our plan includes greenhouse gas reductions but also aims to clean up the air Canadians are breathing.

Climate change is a global issue of major concern to Canadians. Human activities continue to increase the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, producing changes in the climate that are already apparent. And they are. Being from British Columbia, I've seen the mountain pine beetle kill.

Very serious problems are being caused already in Canada by climate change. These changes include altered wind and precipitation patterns and the increased incidence of extreme weather events, droughts, and forest fires. In addition, glacier melt and warmer oceans could lead to significant rises in sea levels. The changes could imperil the way of life in vulnerable communities around the world and here in Canada. The changes would also result in significant economic costs.

It is critical that Canada do its part to address its own contribution to global climate change, and we are doing that. After many years of our not doing what we should be doing—and the Commissioner of the Environment sadly said there were a lot of announcements made but very little action, and we saw our emissions continue to climb, and climb, and climb, which was very embarrassing to Canada internationally—those days are over. We've now moved from voluntary action to mandatory regulatory action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Air pollution is a significant threat to human health and the Canadian environment. Each year smog contributes to thousands of deaths. There are other air pollutant problems such as acid rain and threatened biodiversity in forest and freshwater ecosystems. In order to address the real concern of Canadians suffering from the health effects of air pollution and to clean up Canada's environment, the government must act to reduce emissions of air pollutants—and it's doing that.

Addressing these challenges in a coordinated way will require nothing short of a complete transformation in the capital stock of energy-producing and -consuming businesses and households across Canada. While cooperation among all sectors of government will be required, the Government of Canada is uniquely situated to provide the leadership on this issue that will be required to meet the challenge in a cost-effective manner, in order to ensure the continued competitiveness of the Canadian economy.

We need to have a healthy economy, but we also need to have action on the environment, and that's what we're seeing now. This transformation will not be achieved through the sum of different and potentially conflicting provincial plans or by setting up rules for industry that vary from one area of the country to another. The government's clean air regulatory agenda, along with other initiatives to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and air pollutants, will provide a nationally consistent approach.

We've recently had the report Turning the Corner—An action plan to reduce greenhouse gases and air pollution. The report was just released. It says:

Climate change is a global problem that requires global solutions. Canadians have long known that serious action is required. Previous Governments set ambitious goals for reducing greenhouse gases, [yet] emissions increased year after year.

Why was that, Chair? Members of the opposition have admitted that when they were government, they really did not have the commitment to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. But that's different. Things have changed, and this government is committed to seeing those reductions, but with a realistic plan, a concrete plan that will see those reductions come. They are dramatic, Chair: 20% by 2020 and 60% to 70% by 2050.

Today our greenhouse gas emissions are more than 25% higher than they were in 1990, putting Canada more than 32% above its Kyoto target. That's today. Without immediate action, Canada's greenhouse gas emissions are projected to grow a further 24% by 2020 to reach about 940 megatonnes or 55% above the 1990 levels. That is unacceptable, and that's why we said it is time to turn the corner, and we are turning that corner.

Our government is committed to stopping the increase of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions and dramatically reducing them. I was reading a little out of our Turning the Corner plan. Last April we released the high level framework of our Turning the Corner action plan for reducing emissions. It's a real plan. It's a plan that will achieve the results of absolute reductions in greenhouse gases, a plan that was costed, a plan that will reduce greenhouse gases.

Since then we have consulted with the provinces. We've consulted with environmental groups and industry to develop the details of our plan, which include forcing industry to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions. Forcing industry is huge. That's because we've moved from voluntary to mandatory.

Our plan includes setting up a carbon emissions trading market, including a carbon offset system, to provide incentives for Canadians to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We're providing industry with the tools it needs, the tools of a domestic carbon market, and we're also establishing the market price of carbon. We've heard from industry, we've heard from environmental groups, and we've heard from our international partners that these are necessary parts of the plan, and they are now part of a plan.

Our plan to cut greenhouse gas emissions in Canada is a responsible plan. It's a responsible path to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to address the global threat of climate change. The Government of Canada has established the national target of an absolute reduction of 20% of greenhouse gas emissions from the 2006 levels by the year of 2020. That's a reduction of 330 megatonnes from projected levels. That's huge. The previous plan was that emissions were going up and were going to continue to go up. We are now seeing a dramatic reduction of greenhouse gas emissions--330 megatonnes. This is equal to eliminating the combined greenhouse gas emissions of Alberta, Quebec, and Newfoundland and Labrador. It's a huge accomplishment.

With the Turning the Corner plan, the government is taking action and putting into place, for the first time in Canadian history, one of the toughest regulatory regimes in the world to cut greenhouse gases. Our Turning the Corner plan requires reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases by big industry. Greenhouse gas emissions by the industrial sector will be reduced by 165 megatonnes from projected levels by 2020, an amount greater than the combined emissions by the provinces of British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island. Existing facilities in all industrial sectors will face tough requirements to improve their emissions performance every year. Plants that began operating in 2004 will face even tougher requirements to force them to use cleaner fuels and greener technology.

New oil sands plants and coal-fired power plants coming into operation in 2012 or later--those that are now on the drawing board--will face the toughest requirements of all. The oil sands are one of Canada's greatest natural resources and a major engine to our economy, but we have a responsibility to this generation and future generations to ensure that they are developed in an environmentally responsible way. Without additional action today, emissions from the oil sands would grow dramatically in the coming years, and we can't allow that to happen.

The Government of Canada will require that all oil sand plants meet a tough new emission standard. Plants that began operation in 2004 or after will face even tougher standards based on the use of cleaner fuels. Plants starting operations in 2012 will be required to meet the toughest targets that will effectively put action into place for a new carbon capture and storage technology. It's a wonderful new technology.

When I was in Berlin, Germany, for the G8+5 conference--and Chair, you were there with me--it was wonderful to hear that the world is counting on carbon capture and storage. We also know that the biggest carbon capture and storage facility in the world is in Weyburn, Saskatchewan. What they do is this. In North Dakota, about 300 kilometres south, you have a synthetic coal gasification plant where they create natural gas out of gasifying coal, and from that they create electricity. The carbon dioxide from that plant is shipped 300 kilometres north to Weyburn, Saskatchewan, and it's pumped into the ground for enhanced oil recovery. An oil field that wasn't producing anymore now is because of that technology.

The world shared with us in Berlin, and there were some of us in this room who were at that meeting--the chair, I myself, and there was a member from the Bloc, Mr. Cullen was there, and Mr. Godfrey was there. We heard the importance of carbon capture and storage. The world is hoping that approximately 25% of the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions globally will be reduced because of carbon capture and storage.

So it's a very important technology, and who has that technology? Who is the world leader? Canada. That's why we saw, in Indonesia and Bali, one of the people who were down there as part of the Canadian delegation sharing that technology with the world. We are world leaders, and that's why we're requiring the new plants in the oil sands will have to use that technology, where you capture the carbon dioxide and it's pumped back into the ground. It can be stored there, and it has a less than 1% chance of escaping over a 5,000-year period. It's very safe. It solidifies as it's pumped into the ground, and it also can be used for safe storage, but it also can be used for enhanced oil recovery.

It's expensive technology, but that is what the world is counting on, and that's the leadership that Canada is providing. The leadership is requiring that the Canadian oil sands will have to use that.

Also, Canada must reduce emissions from the dirty coal-fired electricity generation--carbon capture and storage again. The new coal plants that are going to be built in Canada have to use carbon capture and storage.

So it's a very good-news story. I'm sure, Chair, it's something that excites you, because you've been aware of it for a number of years, and it's good news for Canada, but it's also good news for the world.

Many Canadians are not aware that in many provinces much of the electricity we use at home and at work is generated by coal-fired power plants. The Government of Canada believes it is simply irresponsible to keep building dirty coal-fired power plants. Coal-fired plants will have to meet a tough new emission standard. We'll also bring in regulations that will effectively end the construction of dirty coal-fired plants starting in 2012. This is all part of our regulatory Turning the Corner plan. Utilities that want to build coal-fired plants in the future will be required to meet targets based on the use of clean technologies such as carbon capture and storage.

These tough regulatory requirements will reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the oil sands and electricity sectors by about 90 megatonnes, or 55% of the total expected reductions of the 165 megatonnes from industry, by 2020. This will be challenging for those sectors, but the government is confident they will step up and meet the challenge. It will happen.

All together, our government's industrial regulations will achieve half the reductions required to meet our national target of 20% reduction by 2020. These regulations will change how Canada produces and uses energy and will impose a price on carbon that will rise over time, and they will impact the entire economy. As such, they will provide important new incentives for innovation and new opportunities to develop Canadian green technologies.

Chair, I was at the GLOBE conference two weeks ago. At the trade show, it was wonderful to see what was happening in the technologies here in Canada.

We saw Iogen, a company that creates ethanol from waste product, from straw. They break it down using an enzyme to create alcohol, and it's 100% alcohol. It's like a big still. They mix gasoline with the alcohol to create ethanol, and it's called E85. Minister Baird arrived at the GLOBE conference in an E85-powered vehicle.

When I fuel up, there are gas stations already in British Columbia where you can buy ethanol. It's rated up to 10%.

But this is where the government, through a mandatory regulation--no longer voluntary--is moving forward with cleaner fuels and cleaner technology. In the end, we end up with absolute reductions of 20% by 2020. And we set a good example. We also end up with cleaner air for healthier Canadians.

The Government of Canada is taking further action that will cut greenhouse gas emissions from transportation and from buildings. These actions include mandatory renewable fuel content in gasoline, diesel, and heating oils. A moment ago, I mentioned what we saw at the GLOBE conference. It was very interesting.

For the first time in Canadian history we will have tough new fuel consumption standards for cars, light trucks, and sport utility vehicles. These are some of the toughest targets in the world and definitely in Canadian history. The vehicles--cars, light trucks, and sport utility vehicles--will have to burn less fuel and become more energy efficient.

New energy efficiency requirements for a wide range of commercial and consumer products such as dishwashers and commercial boilers and new national performance standards that'll ban inefficient incandescent light bulbs are actions the government is requiring with our Turning the Corner plan.

But we can already do that. We already have that technology and we are moving forward. These are minimum standards--20% reduction by 2020--but Canadians can already start doing that.

Chair, I've had the great pleasure of buying new fluorescent-type light bulbs as replacements and I've seen my electricity bill drop significantly. It's a nice light, and you can get different types of fluorescent lighting, all using much less energy. Instead of a 60-watt bulb, it's an 11-watt bulb. If you replace all the bulbs in your house, all of a sudden you're saving a lot of electricity. But there is different lighting. Some of the bulbs have a soft glow and some are very bright.

We are implementing ways of reducing our carbon footprint and cleaning up the environment.

Our government has also launched a broad suite of ecoACTION programs that will complement our regulatory initiatives and stimulate the growth of renewable energy and fuels: energy-efficient homes and buildings, fuel-efficient cars and trucks, and increased public infrastructure.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

As I was listening to my colleagues, who share a similar concern that I have, I was going over the need for an impact analysis or a cost analysis. The first person who was asking for that was Mr. Layton. When Mr. Layton came on December 11, he said he wanted the government to do an impact analysis. He also went on to say that “Matthew Bramley will be your next witness...and he will be describing his research and this report”. He also shared that Mr. Bramley had been consulted and helped write Bill C-377.

Mr. Bramley was asked about whether or not it had been costed. It was actually Mr. Vellacott who asked him this, and he said:

Mr. Bramley, does your report do any economic modelling that specifically focuses on Canada? In your report, “The Case for Deep Reductions”, do you have any economic modelling that focuses on Canada?

It was a very clear question. Mr. Bramley's answer was:

We cite a number of economic modelling studies but none that relate specifically to meeting the target we advocate for Canada in 2050. To my knowledge, that hasn't been done, and it needs to be done.

So what we have here, right at the beginning, on December 11, is Mr. Layton and Mr. Bramley--

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I'll make it quick. I disagree with my colleague Mr. Vellacott. I too have been a Member of Parliament and a member of this committee for 11 years. Often bills are poorly drafted. They are amended at length in committee. In essence, they are rewritten. You may recall Bill C-30 which was virtually rewritten by a parliamentary committee at the time. Yet, it went on to be endorsed by the committee. If we were able to accomplish that feat with Bill C-30, then we can certainly do the same with Bill C-377.

I am disappointed by the government's attitude. I felt that in the days leading up to our Easter break, we had extended an olive branch to the government by inviting the parliamentary secretary to sit on the steering committee, so that we could get off on the right foot, and work and plan our agenda for the sake of greater efficiency.

We were also acting in good faith during the discussion that just took place. I was surprised to see that the government is prepared to schedule an additional meeting tomorrow to dispense with this bill as quickly as possible. As I see it, the government is stalling to disrupt the committee's business, when in fact we have other matters to attend to.

The government still has 45 minutes to refocus on the basic principles at issue her so that we can move forward and improve the bill. If it has any amendments to propose, then it should do so, by all means. I had some reservations about the bill. I acted as a parliamentarian and proposed these amendments. We debated them and voted on them.

Mr. Chairman, I therefore invite the government to show a little more civility, to stop resorting to stalling tactics and to focus instead on studying the bill.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I'm replying to the point of order.

I asked Mr. Cullen if he would be willing to have his plan costed or have an impact analysis done, and he said no. We also asked if he would be willing to have some of the witnesses come back to deal with just the jurisdictional issue, because the bill was severely criticized for that. Amendments were made, presented by him and others, and we have a poorly written bill.

I'm not going to fix up his poorly written bill, but he's refusing to have it critiqued. We have a number of members speaking, and we have some serious concerns about the bill.

As for his wanting to move forward, we want to move forward with Bill C-377. I hope we can finish with this amendment, vote on it, and go to the main motion. But he's refusing to have his bill critiqued. Those are the facts.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What we have from Mr. Cullen--or I guess more indirectly on Bill C-377 it's from Mr. Layton, his leader--in asking the implication basically.... I think our main concern with the amendment, if he's not quite understood that yet, is that by way of what he has here, measured progress would be tied to a projection based on a set of assumptions that have quite an impact on the actual level of greenhouse gas emissions projected.

What this is doing is working off projections rather than what we would suggest, which is that they should be measured against actual emissions recorded in the national inventory report. Our plan uses the 2006 baseline. The international standard is 1990. Ours is different. The fact is that there really is, in some sense, no international standard, because some countries have used 1990, others have used 2000, others use 2003, others use 2005. So there's no agreed-upon baseline there.

When our government, the Conservative government, came into office back in 2006, we were really not able to take responsibility for the inaction and failure of the previous government, the Liberals, to cut greenhouse gas emissions in the previous regime. But we have to take responsibility from this point on, so that means using an actual baseline as opposed to the projections that are included in the clause we have before us now.

I know some have criticized us and have chastised us, so to speak, for talking about an intensity-based plan, this kind of rhetoric, that it allows emissions to grow forever. But we made very clear our commitment to Canadians to cut those greenhouse gases and to do it by an absolute 20% by the year 2020. Those are absolute targets based on the baseline of 2006. It's not something rather vague; they're actual targets, not intensity based, and regulations that actually—as in fact Mr. Cullenwould know—will force industries to massively reduce the greenhouse gases they release for each unit of production. That's part of the plan for meeting that goal, and our plan forces industry to get more efficient each year, as the years go on, so that greenhouse gases go down even as the economy grows.

As opposed to this particular baseline requested here, our plan actually forces industry to get more efficient each year, so that those greenhouse gases go down, and it will even, at the same time as the economy is allowed to grow, require industry to get significantly more efficient: 18% more by the year 2010 and then 2% more efficient each and every year after that.

So the math is really pretty straightforward. The math is quite simple here. The Canadian economy, in terms of a pattern here, grows by 2% to 3% a year. If we require industry to get 18% more efficient, total emissions will go down even as the economy grows. That's just how the math works out. As Mr. Cullen would know, Canada's total emissions under our plan will go down as early as 2010 and no later than 2012, even as the economy grows.

So we don't believe that our country, our environment, is well served by simply closing factories down and by shipping jobs off to countries like China and India that have lower environmental standards than we do. That would actually mean that Canadians would lose jobs and that we would end up importing products, bringing products in from abroad, produced in dirtier factories that pollute the world with even more greenhouse gases. So the kind of baseline here, where we're actually measuring against projections instead of actual solid figures as reported in the national inventory report there, is the concern we have.

Our plan is actually going to do something fairly significant in terms of the oil sands projects. It will allow some 38 new oil sands projects to proceed. They're really one of Canada's greatest resources out in provinces in the west, but they're a major engine for our economy, and as a government we do have a great responsibility to the generations ahead to ensure that they are developed in an environmentally sound way.

We have that plan. We have that tougher regime for the existing oil sands projects and for oil sands projects under construction, as was clear in our budget--tough measures for planned oil sands projects as well. They'll have some very tough regulations. Existing ones will have tough regulations to reduce their emissions by 18% by 2020 with an additional improvement of 2% every year after that.

Oil sands projects under construction between 2004 and 2011 will not only have to meet the tough standard of 18% and 2%, but additional tougher emission standards to drive adoption of cleaner fuels and technologies. Those new oil sands projects will have the toughest standards of all. Oil sands projects built in 2012 and later will have to use carbon capture and storage or other green technology to cut their emissions.

Those three measures are some of the toughest regulations in the industrial world. We're basing it on actual figures, as opposed to the projected baseline Mr. Cullen is suggesting in the clause that's before us now.

We don't believe, as some appear to, in a moratorium on new construction. We believe it would be possible, and that it's irresponsible to shut the door on the creation of more good jobs in Canada.

We have made that commitment to Canadians to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 20% by the year 2020, and the Turning the Corner plan is very specific in terms of how we go about doing that, using tough measures to put us on a path to meet those commitments.

Also, I think what's important to know--and members across the way would be somewhat aware of this, or should be--is that we believe in the polluter-pay principle. Our plan recognizes that all Canadians have to fight climate change and that industry has to do its part; and it will, as things stand.

Our regulations will apply to all big industry, as we said, the oil sands and any of the other oil projects as well, in terms of a solid baseline from 2006. All the way from smelters to pulp and paper mills, all industry has to do its fair share, because oil sands and dirty coal are two of the biggest emitting industries.

Electricity plants have requirements to meet. They're going to carry the brunt of this. That plan requires, as we said, banning the construction of new dirty-coal electricity plants and requires all those new ones to use carbon capture and storage or other green technology. And that's happening in my own province.

So again, using the 2006 baseline, by these means and by carbon sequestration, we will meet those goals and we will maintain very tough regulations with respect to that.

Companies will have to choose. They'll have to find the most cost-effective way to meet their emission reduction targets from a whole range of options. These include in-house reductions. They can make contributions to a technology fund or domestic emissions trading. Companies that have already reduced their greenhouse gas emissions prior to 2006 will have access to a limited one-time credit for early action.

But we have to keep coming back and emphasizing the point of using 2006 as a baseline. I think it's much more realistic to start there, and we will press forward on that basis, unlike the failed approach of the previous government.

We're taking a more balanced approach. I think that's what the economy requires, and it's what the Canadian public requires, because making the reductions is practical and gets the job done.

It's a focused approach toward an absolute reduction in greenhouse gases of 20% by the year 2020. It protects our environment while growing our economy at the same time. It moves Canadians forward on a low-carbon economy, using a proper baseline instead of the one that's proposed here, where we've got these projections instead.

It's a challenge, admittedly. Canadians have to share, and there will be a cost, but we believe that together, as we partner and join hands on that, the cost is manageable. Industry will do a significant part of it, but as individuals, we can as well.

What is significant, and what we should all note today and have on the record in respect of this bill, in respect of this clause, is that our plan includes some real tools--practical tools, I might add--to help Canada cut its greenhouse gas emissions. These include more than $9 billion in ecoACTION initiatives for home retrofit grants, for renewable power, for biofuels, and for public transit. We've also delivered other means, such as a carbon market, an offset system, and most importantly, some tough regulations to force industry to cut its emissions, again based not on projections, as in clause 10, but on using 2006 as the baseline.

We know that Mr. Dion and the Liberal Party didn't get it done when it came to cutting our greenhouse gas emissions. But we really are moving forward with some practical plans here.

Some people have said that our plan gives a free pass to some of these areas. Some have said that our plan would hurt the economy. Actually, by cutting emissions to the extent we are, our plan is in fact going to impose some real costs on Canadians. We believe, however, in the commitment, the ingenuity, and the willingness of Canadians and Canadian industry to tackle that climate change challenge.

Our plan works by getting industry cleaner and more efficient so we release less greenhouse gas for every item we produce down the road. It's realistic. Again, using that 2006 baseline, it'll allow us to cut by an absolute 20% by 2020. This is not intensity-based so much as it is absolute, and that's what I think Canadians want.

Due to the inaction, unfortunately, of the previous government--they had lots of time to get at this--Canada is 33% above Kyoto targets now. That's why we have to use a 2006 baseline. The Liberals talked and talked. There was a lot of hot air, if you will, about cutting our greenhouse gases, but they allowed them to soar. So we have to be realistic as we approach it now. We can't allow projections, as in clause 10; rather, we need to use something more realistic by way of 2006, which is the commitment we have. That's what we'll follow through on.

We're already into the target period of 2008 to 2012. Meeting those targets by 2012, something virtually every Liberal environment minister admitted we could not do, would take Canada into a pretty deep recession, with major job losses and a significant decline in incomes for Canadians. Taking that kind of drastic reaction, using the wrong baselines, would create some real problems for our country. It would be irresponsible at the best of times. In the uncertain economic times in which we live--we're all watching it carefully and seeing what the subprime real estate stuff does to Canada--we have to be prudent about it.

It would be irresponsible to take some of the measures being suggested by members opposite. In particular, the Liberal lack of action in the past has exacerbated that. So we pursue, as we've said here in respect of the baseline and in respect of the practical actions, a balanced plan that stops the increase in Canada's greenhouse emissions and cuts them by about 20% by the year 2020.

We hope to get industry to be significantly more efficient, as we said: 18% more efficient by 2010 and 2% more efficient each and every year after that. We will, as a result--you do the math, you do the calculation--become 18% more efficient. Thereafter, total emissions will be going down, even as the economy is growing at its average rate. In fact, Canada's total emissions, using the 2006 baseline and the practical parts of Turning the Corner, will go down as early as 2010 and no later than 2012, even as the economy grows for us.

Our plan, make no mistake--Mr. Cullen will possibly be pleased to hear this--will impose real costs on the Canadian economy. But we believe that as Canadians together, we can jointly do that.

I guess there are some other myths that come up over time. I know this because out in my part of the country, in Saskatchewan, on the border and over toward Alberta, and so on, some people are clearly negative. They use the rhetoric in terms of the oil sands projects out there. But surely some creativity, innovativeness, and new technology can take care of that, get at that, and help us to actually get some good results in that area.

Some have said that our plan gives a free pass to the oil sands by allowing emissions to double, but that's absolutely not true. If we did not take action, emissions from the oil sands would quadruple by 2020, and that's not acceptable. We cannot allow that to occur.

Our plan imposes the toughest environmental regulations for the oil sands in our history. New oil sands facilities will be required to use carbon capture and storage, or other green technology as well, to massively reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. So you use that 2006 baseline as opposed to--

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I have a follow-up question for Mr. Cullen. I wish he would answer the question, because again, he's suggesting that Bill C-377 proceed without the impact analysis, which is against every bit of advice we've been hearing.

We heard from witnesses some serious concerns about the constitutionality of Bill C-377. The bill would give sweeping and unlimited powers over the provinces. There were these jurisdictional issues. They said there was no meat on the bones, so to speak. There were targets set without any costing, without any plan.

I believe it was a Bloc member who said that Bill C-377 needed to be rewritten. If wasn't the Bloc, then it was some member of the opposition who said, when we were hearing from the witnesses on, I believe, the jurisdictional issues, that Bill C-377 basically needed to be totally rewritten.

Now, if the sweeping amendments that we're seeing are all passed and we have a new, rewritten Bill C-377, would Mr. Cullen be willing to have the witnesses come back and share with this committee whether or not Bill C-377 addresses their concerns, particularly on the jurisdictional issues? The NDP is resisting doing any costing or impact analysis, but would they be willing to have the constitutional experts come back and say whether or not, with the amendments being proposed, their concerns with regard to jurisdictional issues have been dealt with? Would he accept that?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Unfortunately, Mr. Cullen didn't answer my question. I'll change the terminology and maybe we can get an answer from Mr. Cullen.

Every group was asked if the plan should be costed, and every witness group, and Mr. Layton, said yes. Maybe now Mr. Layton is reconsidering. The last group of witnesses we heard from used the term “impact analysis”, and they said, yes, Bill C-377 should have an impact analysis. They recommended that Bill C-377 not go forward until an impact analysis is done.

I'm looking for a report that I had here, or actually a statement, from the Commissioner of the Environment, Madame Gélinas. She was referring to previous failures on the environment and she was referring to the Kyoto target. She said:

We expected that the federal Liberal government would have conducted economic, social, environmental, and risk analyses in support of its decision to sign the Kyoto Protocol in 1998 [...] we found that little economic analysis was completed, and the government was unable to provide evidence of detailed social, environmental, or risk analyses.

This is the Commissioner of the Environment, and she is warning indirectly in her words, if we heed her wise words, that it didn't work before. What Mr. Cullen is proposing didn't work before, and it won't work with Bill C-377. We've heard every witness group say that Bill C-377 needs to have this impact analysis, just as the former Commissioner of the Environment recommended should have happened before but didn't.

My question again, through you, Chair, to Mr. Cullen, is why is the NDP resisting what the witness groups are saying, that we need to have an impact analysis? If he doesn't want to use the term “cost analysis”, the term “impact analysis” is much greater, much more in-depth.

Why is he resisting having that done?