Bill C-22 (Historical)

An Act respecting the mandatory reporting of Internet child pornography by persons who provide an Internet service

This enactment imposes reporting duties on persons who provide an Internet service to the public if they are advised of an Internet address where child pornography may be available to the public or if they have reasonable grounds to believe that their Internet service is being or has been used to commit a child pornography offence. This enactment makes it an offence to fail to comply with the reporting duties.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Some of the recommendations, obviously, are subject to cabinet confidence because they're in the midst of an MC, but we're having discussions with the DOJ about the mandatory reporting act and how to strengthen that.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes. When we had that discussion with MindGeek back in 2018, they asked for support in relation to some automated software to assist in the detection of the online sexual exploitation material, so the NCECC directed them to a third party so that they could have that type of software.

Also, at that time, the issue of the mandatory reporting act was raised, and at the time they said that it doesn't apply to them because they're not a Canadian company, although that doesn't mean they weren't reporting it. They were actually reporting it through the United States. Then the United States gives us that information, and we actually, through MindGeek, have asked them to do a monthly report on what they report to the United States.

It's kind of a non-traditional way that it is being done, but the bottom line is that we are getting the reports.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I guess what was shocking to us at committee was to learn that they had never actually complied at all or brought forward anything under their obligations in the mandatory reporting act.

I bring it up—and I know you can't deal with specific cases—because I want to talk about a survivor who reached out to us who's an adult survivor of non-consensual abuse, as we've been talking about children. She's had numerous conversations with the RCMP and she's logged them. In an April 6 phone call with the RCMP, the RCMP told her that Pornhub can't be charged because they're under a blanket waiver. The survivor asked if that meant their terms of service, and the RCMP said, yes, that the terms of service state that they are not liable and it's the user's responsibility. This is a survivor of non-consensual sexual assault.

I know you can't speak to specifics, but it says in your briefing notes that the terms of use were identified, and this is what a police officer is telling a survivor as to why they can't bring forward her case. Why is that?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It's all about a combination, because there's the legal side and there's the regulatory side. Of course, we don't deal with the regulatory side.

Let's face it, if we can get companies to voluntarily comply with the regulations, then we are so much further ahead. I know that we've been working with the companies, especially through the NCECC. We've been sharing best practices of other companies who obviously have it right or are doing better. We discuss mechanisms for reporting. We provide the awareness and the education of the mandatory reporting act in the first place, because many of these companies aren't aware of that. It's a combination of—

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Thank you for your question.

It's a great question. Obviously, we look at multiple things. First of all, we look at legislation. We have the mandatory reporting act, as Minister Lametti spoke about. We have to look at compliance within that act, and it has to be more inclusive of all the service providers. It would be very helpful, of course, to have basic subscriber information for that, because that would lead to quicker responses and more fulsome responses. Increased resources never hurts. I would never turn down increased resources.

We also have to look at technology. For instance, I think earlier you spoke of the Arachnid project. That's using technology. That's for children, but we should be using similar technology for adults as well, something that can scour the Internet and take multiple images down. Even if we hit one service provider, like a Facebook or a Twitter or a Pornhub, that image gets downloaded to other platforms. It grows exponentially. The only way to get rid of all that is to have technology scan and scour.

Obviously, we need mandatory reporting of online harm. We need those steps, like the minister spoke about, to preserve that evidence and have that content removed in a timely manner as per what the minister said. All of those are very important.

We always need to be speaking with our international partners. It's interesting that you say that, because when I talk with the Five Eyes partners, obviously we're talking about national security, so we talk about terrorism, but we talk a lot about child exploitation. It's a growing industry. One statistic that shocks me is that since Project Arachnid, which scours the net and takes down images, or requests for images to be taken down, as of April 1 of this year it has sent over 6.9 million requests to [Technical difficulty—Editor] platforms for removal. That number is incredibly huge.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It's such a complicated issue because, as you know, the application of domestic criminal laws and territorial limits [Technical difficulty—Editor] jurisdiction has been a challenge given the global nature of the Internet, which is not bound by traditional borders. International conflict law is such a complex matter. It's very difficult for the RCMP to monitor and ascertain compliance with the mandatory reporting act, particularly in the cases where the companies have a complex international structure and the data is stored in multiple jurisdictions. Those services flow through the Internet and transcend international borders.

However, that's where having strong partnerships internationally, including with the Virtual Global Taskforce, allows us to exchange intelligence and data. That is where we can maximize and get rid of some of those borders, so to speak, because we have to make sure it falls within our protocol.

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you so much for that question.

COVID-19 especially has had a heightened risk to children, as offenders have taken advantage of the fact that children are spending more time online and are often unsupervised. Since the onset of the pandemic, the centre has seen increased online activity related to online child sexual exploitation. From March to May 2020, the centre has recorded an approximately 36% increase in reports of suspected online child exploitation, attributed in part to the increase in viral media and a tangible increase in self-exploitation cases.

We also anticipate more reporting of child exploitation offences, both online and off-line, when the pandemic-related restrictions are slowly lifted and the children have access to trusted adults once again—their teachers, caregivers and community support services. It was largely limited at the onset of the pandemic, likely preventing children from reporting abuse to trusted adults outside of their homes, which is such a crucial part.

In terms of your question with regard to Minister Blair reaching out to the RCMP, whenever a huge...for example, when this arose about the increase in child exploitation, we're always having a conversation about the things we can do to prevent them. Obviously, we're looking at legislation and we're looking at the mandatory reporting act. We spoke about resources. We spoke about technology. We've talked about things within the acts and how that could improve law enforcement and how we could better reach out to law enforcement.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I'm happy to jump in.

I'm glad, Mr. Angus, that you have understood that Canadian criminal law and the mandatory reporting act provide one of the strongest and most exhaustive frameworks in the world for these kinds of heinous crimes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Lametti, I would like to give you the opportunity to tell the committee more specifically what the mandatory reporting act is. I know that my colleague asked you various questions about it, but perhaps you can provide this committee with the broad outlines of what exactly this act is and how it can help combat child pornography in Canada.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Again, my role in this, Mr. Viersen, as you know, is to ensure that the Criminal Code, the mandatory reporting act and other statutes provide adequate coverage—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I totally understand. It was just that Ms. Kalemba was Canadian, so I thought you might be able to help us.

I'm interested, though, because we talked about the mandatory reporting act and you're telling us we're going to get this new regulator that's going to come, and it's going to be mandatory as well. However, this RCMP briefing note says that the RCMP strives to maintain partnerships with private companies—Pornhub/MindGeek—as these are effective and support the companies' voluntary compliance and adherence to its own terms of use.

I have read the laws on child pornography and the mandatory reporting act. I'm just really surprised that the RCMP and you seem to have this position that you would prefer voluntary compliance with the law, when we haven't had a single case of their actually reporting anything. How does this voluntary compliance work with our partners at MindGeek if they never report anything?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Mr. Angus, I will say, as I have said, that both the Criminal Code and the mandatory reporting act cover Canadian domestic situations. Other international agreements help with respect to the gathering of that evidence.

I won't comment on any past, ongoing or future cases of investigation. That is not in my.... I'm not able to do that without jeopardizing potential investigations.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was just beginning my question, Mr. Lametti. I'm sorry to interrupt. I don't want to be rude.

Rose Kalemba gave us horrific testimony in writing. She was 14 when she was kidnapped, tortured and raped, and multiple videos of her torture were posted on Pornhub. She begged them to take it down. They wouldn't take it down until over two million people had witnessed it.

She is a Canadian citizen. These tags were posted by a company that is centred in Montreal. Given your reading of the mandatory reporting act, would it have saved Rose Kalemba and the other victims that we talked to if there had been a single instance where Pornhub or MindGeek had actually reported, as per the mandatory reporting act, as we have in Canadian law, to Canadian authorities?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's interesting because it doesn't say that under the mandatory reporting act, Mr. Lametti. It says under the mandatory reporting act that, if an allegation of child pornography is made, the service provider has to make that available to the appropriate Canadian law enforcement agency. However, you're saying they can interpret that to maybe apply to someone else, because they have never made a single mention. They have never reported anything to Canadian authorities.

I mention that because Rose Kalemba—

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I am very aware of the mandatory reporting act, and a company may also be required to report in another country, such as the United States, which then may be required to report back to Canadian law enforcement—