Bill S-7 (Historical)

Combating Terrorism Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Security of Information Act

This enactment replaces sections 83.28 to 83.3 of the Criminal Code to provide for an investigative hearing for the purpose of gathering information for an investigation of a terrorism offence and to allow for the imposition of a recognizance with conditions on a person to prevent them from carrying out a terrorist activity. In addition, the enactment provides for those sections to cease to have effect or for the possible extension of their operation. The enactment also provides that the Attorney General of Canada and the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness include in their respective annual reports their opinion on whether those sections should be extended. It also amends the Criminal Code to create offences of leaving or attempting to leave Canada to commit certain terrorism offences.
The enactment also amends the Canada Evidence Act to allow the Federal Court to order that applications to it with respect to the disclosure of sensitive or potentially injurious information be made public and to allow it to order that hearings related to those applications be heard in private. In addition, the enactment provides for the annual reporting on the operation of the provisions of that Act that relate to the issuance of certificates and fiats.
The enactment also amends the Security of Information Act to increase, in certain cases, the maximum penalty for harbouring a person who committed an offence under that Act.
Lastly, it makes technical amendments in response to a parliamentary review of these Acts.

Nuclear Terrorism Act

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I recognize that back in 2001 it was obviously a very serious issue, not only at that time but even prior to the whole 9/11 incident. There was already a great deal of discussion about terrorism. At the time, Chrétien was the prime minister of Canada and played a role in trying to heighten the importance of getting some form of treaty signed through the United Nations. The Liberal Party has always been very supportive of the United Nations.

The resolution that the member is specifically referring to was back in 2001. It required member states to adopt certain anti-terrorism legislation and policies, including those to prevent and suppress the financing of terrorist acts, freeze the financial resources available to terrorist organizations, suppress the supply of weapons to organizations, as well as deny safe haven to those who finance, plan, support or commit terrorist acts. It also called on the member states to become party to and fully implement the relevant international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, as soon as possible.

Some of those items are fairly recent in terms of enactment in Canada's own Criminal Code. I believe even Bill S-7 might have attempted to deal with some of this. There is no doubt that the government has been negligent in not addressing some of those dated resolutions that were passed years ago.

Therefore, we could be doing more. Maybe we should be having a thorough review on those resolutions dealing with terrorism that have been passed, or those agreements that have been signed off, to see what more Canada could do, through the House of Commons, to ensure that we are not only signing agreements but actually implementing—

Business of the House

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I will first wish my former Liberal counterpart, the hon. member for Westmount—Ville-Marie, well on his newest mission.

Yesterday was probably an auspicious day for the former astronaut to launch a Liberal leadership campaign. A member of my staff has told me that November 28 was Red Planet Day. While the member's ideas and proposals will no doubt be well suited for the red party, it is yet to be determined whether they will actually be better suited for Mars or for Earth. We will wait and see.

The hon. member for Papineau might want to be aware of the House leader bump. My first NDP counterpart after the election now resides in Stornoway. Meanwhile, I want to welcome and congratulate the new Liberal House leader, the hon. member for Beauséjour. I look forward to continuing the very positive relationship that I enjoyed working together with his predecessor. I genuinely and sincerely wish his predecessor the best of luck.

I am sure that the new House leader will be keen to hear that we will resume the report stage debate on Bill C-45, the jobs and growth act, 2012, this afternoon.

After almost 4,600 votes in the House and committee on our 2012 economic action plan, I am pleased to say that we are in the home stretch of implementing our budget for this year.

Canadians will soon see important measures such the hiring credit for small business extended, greater tax relief for investing in clean energy, and strengthened registered disability savings plan rules.

To the great chagrin of the New Democrats no doubt, Canadians will still not see within that budget a $21.5 billion job killing carbon tax or the $6 billion GST tax grab that I know they wish to see implemented. It does not matter how many hundreds of amendments they put forward, we simply will not accede to their tax and spend initiatives.

The House will consider Bill C-45 on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday next week.

We will resume second reading debate on Bill S-9, the Nuclear Terrorism Act, tomorrow. We will get back to second reading of Bill C-15, the Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada Act, if we have time.

On Thursday and Friday next week, we will work through a number of bills before the House, including: Bill C-43, the Faster Removal of Foreign Criminals Act, which was reported back from committee this morning; Bill C-37, the Increasing Offenders' Accountability for Victims Act; Bill S-7, the Combating Terrorism Act, should it be reported back from committee; and the other bills I have mentioned, if we have not had a chance to wrap up those debates.

Finally, for the benefit of the House and particularly committees meeting on the supplementary estimates, I am planning for the last supply day of this fall to be on Monday, December 10. I expect that I will get back to the House next week at some point to designate that date formally.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for being here. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to make sure that Bill S-7 is strong and constitutional and all the other aspects. I appreciate the fact that you're pointing these things out, which will clearly be listened to by many, and by those who have drafted the bill, to ensure that it is constitutional and all of the rest of it.

I find it interesting the work that both of you are doing, and I would ask you a bit of an odd question: has either one of you ever been affected by a tragic loss in your family?

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

I invite the committee to take into account the very wise remarks of Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, QC, from England, who was asked to review the work of the committee that had been charged with reviewing the anti-terrorism measures adopted in the U.K. I put it to you that his approach....

I mean, I think Lord Macdonald of River Glaven starts from the proposition, as I do, that certainly terrorism is a serious threat, and something must be done. What he is concerned about is whether the mechanisms that had been developed in England continued to be efficient and were the best possible.

I think he starts his remarks by saying that things must be done, but the best thing.... I'll quote him, from here: that the review rightly recognizes that “Where people are involved in terrorist activity, they must be detected and...prosecuted and locked up.”

In a way, his approach would be to look at the strategies, in particular the control orders in there, that have prevented and undermined evidence-gathering in a way that is not pursuing the objective of responding through the use of regular criminal law.

The second point he made is that all measures must be geared generally to the use of regular criminal law procedure. That has been the practice in Canada, as well, in the context of the group of 18. In that context, exceptional measures are undermining the legitimacy of the counterterrorism measure.

He goes on to say that exceptional measures are better framed in exceptional legislation and should not be normalized. A similar sentiment was evoked by the eminent jurist. The last thing, and I'll conclude with this, is that he says, the “paucity of use” of a measure—and I'll use his language, although it's difficult for me to use the British sound—“hardly speaks of pressing need”.

Eventually what he concludes is, first, what were the powers that were used by the legislation? Do they continue to be relevant? Have they had perverse effects in undermining and gathering of evidence? If they haven't been used, then he cautioned against maintaining them, with the view that indeed “paucity of use...hardly speaks of pressing need”. Therefore, as he suggests, there's always a good reason to increase state power but we must be cautious to resist the temptation, and strongly evaluate the case for increased powers.

I think Canada is now in a position to evaluate how its response will be judged on international law and on the international scene. Elsewhere in the world, as you read this morning in the paper, the state gives themselves large powers to ensure stability. It would be a mistake, in this context, for Canada to put legislation on the books by which the major claim to fame, or the major reassuring feature, has been that it's not been used and will probably not be used again. It's a mistake to put legislation on the books that is designed not to be used.

I will now talk about constitutionality.

I will make two small remarks here, which are linked solely to the fact that when you look precisely at Bill S-7 , there are ways in which it does not completely reflect the thinking of the Supreme Court when it dealt with la question de l'audition pour investigation, investigative hearing. In that context, it did insist that the testimony should not be used in the context of criminal proceeding. This is covered by subsection 83.28(10).

It also demanded that it not be used in the context of administrative hearings. This is not in the bill. It should be in the bill; otherwise it risks failing a constitutionality test. The point is that the right to silence, the protection against self-incrimination, exists not only in criminal proceedings but also in administrative proceedings. This is not in the bill, and it should be there.

Finally, I would caution the committee about relying on this case without reading the other cases that have assessed the counterterrorism framework of Canada.

It is important to remember that the Supreme Court ruling preceded the first decision in Charkaoui v. Canada. The court assessed the mechanism and was concerned about the changing role of judges.

Clearly,

investigating hearings transform the role of judges, from being passive in the context of a contradictory system to a more inquisitorial system. This is alien to our judicial system and it doesn't fit well.

Indeed, I think the reason why the procedure is not used is probably that CSIS agents are far more adept than judges—and I say that with all the respect in the world to the judges—at asking pointed questions. Their training, as judges, is to listen to an exchange of ideas as opposed to being out there and pointing.... So there's danger in transforming without sufficient guarantees.

A month ago, CCLA hosted a conference on the social cost of counterterrorism. In that context, we were interested in mapping the indirect effects of the counterterrorism measures.

I will just point out—I invite the committee to actually pay attention to this—some of the conclusions that came out: discrimination against Muslim and Arab Canadians has increased; many people change their names to get jobs; many people suffer from agoraphobia. We also had an entire study that was done to identify people who were repliés on themselves; the communities were actually increasing their mistrust of the authorities. That may not be the way to go.

Lord Macdonald of River Glaven said, “The British are strong and free people, and their laws should reflect this”. I submit that Canadians have a free and strong nation, and their laws should reflect this as well.

Merci beaucoup.

[Nathalie Des Rosiers, General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association]

I will begin my presentation in French, and then continue in English.

I want to thank the committee for inviting the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. The association has existed for almost 50 years, and its mandate still consists in taking a principled stand on issues facing society.

Today, I invite you to think about two issues. A framework of analysis should support the study of certain provisions that, like those included in Bill S-7, were subject to a sunset clause. In that context, it's a matter of conducting an in-depth study of what has happened since the terrible events that left their mark on Canada and the world.

The association certainly recognizes that the duty of states to protect their citizens and nationals is well-established. We must never neglect that duty. That is a state's primary duty. Terrorism is a threat to everyone's security. Therefore, a state must deal with terrorism while respecting international law and constitutional law. The threat of terrorism has not diminished. That's not what the association's position is.

As we heard earlier, terrorist acts have real consequences on many people. The Air India terrorist bombing took place 27 years ago, and the September 11 attacks were carried out 11 years ago. Despite everything, I think this committee's duty is to develop the most effective counterterrorism approach. The question is not whether we should react to terrorism or have an anti-terrorism strategy, but rather whether the strategies included in Bill S-7 are the best and the most appropriate ones.

We should take advantage—and I think that is the goal of this exercise—of the advances in knowledge that have been made in counterterrorism over the past 11 years. Many developments have been made around the world in the assessment of the best counterterrorism practices. I will share some observations—for instance, reviews from Great Britain regarding anti-terrorism measures.

We think that the framework of analysis invites parliamentarians to take their role very seriously and to address the issue as follows, while applying the following principles.

You certainly have to take into consideration the latest developments in the fight against terrorism. Parliamentarians must also ensure that the Constitution is respected. In addition, I think that parliamentarians must make sure that the bills that are passed have no indirect effects, unintended consequences or negative impacts on certain groups of citizens.

I will now talk about the latest developments in the fight against terrorism.

I'm going to move into English, if that's okay.

[Carmen Cheung, Counsel, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon. It is such an honour and a privilege to appear before this committee again. On behalf of the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to present on Bill S-7.

The BCCLA is a non-profit, non-partisan organization based in Vancouver, British Columbia. Since its incorporation in 1963 the mandate of the BCCLA has been to promote, defend, sustain, and extend civil liberties and human rights in Canada. We speak out on the principles that promote individual rights and freedoms, including due process and fundamental justice concerns in situations where individual interests are affected or engaged by the state.

Last year we appeared before this committee to express our serious concerns about the preventative detention and investigative hearing provisions in Bill C-17, the predecessor bill to the one under discussion today. At that time we highlighted our concerns that while it is far from clear that such measures would have any demonstrable effect on combatting terrorism, they would very likely result in eroding the democratic principles and ideals that all of us seek to protect.

Rather than repeat in detail those comments, I refer the committee to the BCCLA's submissions from February of last year, which are attached as an appendix to the speaking notes I have provided to the committee this morning. I would instead like to focus my remarks today on our concerns with the approaches to combatting terrorism reflected in this bill.

In the proposals to resurrect preventative detention and investigative hearings, we see an approach that looks to expand the scope and reach of state authority without accompanying expansion of accountability and oversight. In the provisions seeking to create new offences under the Criminal Code for leaving or attempting to leave Canada with the intent to take part in terrorism as it's very broadly defined already in the Criminal Code, we see an approach to national security that continues to focus primarily on criminal sanctions without sufficient consideration of rehabilitation.

Let me first address the issue of accountability and oversight. The preventative detention provision in Bill S-7 permits holding an individual without charge, or without even the intent to charge, for up to 72 hours based on mere suspicion of dangerousness. It strips an individual's liberty absent proof or even suspicion of an offence and runs counter to basic principles of fundamental justice.

The investigative hearing provision in turn transforms our courts into investigative tools of CSIS and the RCMP and is fundamentally inconsistent with the spirit of the right to silence, the right against self-incrimination.

Both of these provisions expand the power and the authority of the state to encroach on basic civil liberties. Indeed, the extraordinary nature of such proposed state powers is reflected in the fact that they, like their predecessor legislation from 2001, are accompanied by sunset clauses.

Yet, at the same time government seeks to expand the powers of our national security agencies, we see no similar efforts to ensure that accountability and oversight of the national security apparatus are any more robust.

Six years ago the Arar commission made clear that the accountability mechanisms for national security oversight had simply not kept pace with the scope and scale of national security operations. To that end, Justice O'Connor made a series of detailed recommendations directed at improving the accountability and review mechanisms for national security operations.

Chief among his recommendations, of course, was the integration of national security review across agencies and review bodies, and the creation of a national security umbrella committee, which would facilitate cross-agency accountability. It is an uncontroversial proposition that national security operations can only be effective if there is inter-agency cooperation. But what that means also is that there needs to be inter-agency review and oversight.

Six years after the close of the Arar inquiry, we are still very far from that integrated system of national security review. And to this day, notwithstanding Justice O'Connor's recommendations, there still is no mechanism for independent review of the national security activities of the CBSA, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Transport Canada, FINTRAC, or DFAIT.

The provisions in this bill contemplate an expansion of investigative powers. They also imply increased information sharing, not only between the various national security agencies such as CSIS, the RCMP, and the CBSA, but also between these agencies and foreign partners.

As with all national security matters, the exercise of these powers and the extent of this information-sharing will be largely kept secret.

These characteristics of national security operations—lack of transparency, increased information-sharing, increased international cooperation—were all highlighted by Justice O'Connor in 2006 as reasons why strong and effective review and accountability mechanisms are so crucial.

This observation has equal, if not greater, force today. The level of inter-agency integration and international cooperation is even more significant now than at the time of the Arar inquiry, yet conversely, in important respects, we have less accountability and oversight. Indeed, we have grave concerns that, with respect to national security accountability, what we are currently seeing is not only a failure to keep pace, but an actual deterioration of existing oversight and review mechanisms.

In particular, we are very troubled by the elimination of the office of the Inspector General of CSIS this year, given that it was one of only two accountability mechanisms specifically provided for in the CSIS Act. Meanwhile, SIRC, which is now expected to take up the duties of the inspector general, has had no corresponding increase in its resources. Though SIRC itself has said that its mandate should be broadened to allow for a review of national security matters that involve CSIS and go beyond the strict confines of that agency, this recommendation has yet to be taken up.

Accordingly, we urge the committee to refrain from further expanding the powers of our national security agencies until appropriate and effective accountability and review mechanisms have been established. We believe that strong and robust oversight mechanisms are important not only for protecting human rights and civil liberties; they are crucial for ensuring that our national security policies and practices are effective.

We raise the issue of efficacy in national security practices because we agree—again, we agree—that terrorist activities violate fundamental human rights. We must have counterterrorism strategies that work. To that end, however, our counterterrorism efforts cannot be singularly focused on criminalizing conduct. Our criminal laws relating to terrorism as they currently exist are already quite expansive and capture a very wide range of offences and activities, yet this bill proposes to widen the net even further by creating these so-called training camp offences.

This emphasis on criminalization ignores the fact that terrorism cannot be stopped simply by making it illegal. In his testimony before the Special Senate Committee on Anti-terrorism concerning this bill, Professor Kent Roach very rightly noted that we must start talking about rehabilitation of terrorists and reconsider our policy of “once a terrorist, always a terrorist”. Rehabilitation is particularly important in the context of who would be caught up in the ambit of these training offences: likely, young people. The failure to rehabilitate and reintegrate individuals engaged in terrorism or caught up in terrorism perpetuates the cycle of marginalization, disenfranchisement, and alienation that leads to further radicalization. In the end, none of us are safer.

Therefore, we would urge you to refrain from passing this legislation. We cannot afford to grant these extraordinary powers of detention and investigation while we still suffer from deficiencies in accountability and oversight. We cannot continue to expand the reach of the criminal law without making some commitment to ensuring proper and meaningful rehabilitation of those accused or convicted of terrorism offences. Safety and freedom must go hand in hand.

Thank you again for this opportunity. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I will call this meeting back to order to try to keep on time and to make certain our guests have the specified amount of time.

We're continuing our meeting this afternoon of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security and our study of Bill S-7.

On this panel we will hear testimony from the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. We have Nathalie Des Rosiers, as general counsel. As well, by video conference from Vancouver—she's coming in loud and clear, and the picture is clear—we're hearing from the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, Ms. Carmen Cheung. She is counsel for the association.

Our committee wants to thank you for agreeing to help us with our study on Bill S-7. I understand that both of you have opening statements.

We will go to Vancouver first of all, and welcome Ms. Cheung.

[Maureen Basnicki]

The short answer is, yes, I agree to the provisions of Bill S-7, and I'm optimistic that the committee will find it's the right thing to do.

I want to be proud of my country. It seems when we talk about the economy, it's certainly the topic of concern. Canada prides itself on the fact that it took steps beforehand to lessen the impact of the economic situation, and we're very proud of ourselves, and we continue to sing our praises.

In the area of terrorism, which is also a global concern, I want the same sense of pride, so that I can say, “You know what? We took preventative steps to lessen the impact.” I hope it will be an exercise in futility. We all do. Nevertheless, we have to have an exercise in reality here, and the reality is that there could be an attack, and I think this is a giant step in the right direction.

[Dr. Bal Gupta]

I agree with Rob Alexander. I think in retrospect, one of the RCMP officers in one of his interviews used the words “eureka point”. The question was why these guys were not stopped; they were following the individuals, but they were not stopped. His answer was that they were not at the eureka point where they could stop them under the existing law.

So this will be useful, and as I said, we have to be proactive. Let us hope we don't have to deal after the fact. We can stop them; it doesn't matter.... Sometimes it happens that the events that are stopped before they take place are not counted in these statistics. It's almost like asking, “Why do I need insurance or a fire extinguisher if I've never had a fire?” Let us hope it happens that way, that it is not needed.

As a group, we are very satisfied with the provisions in Bill S-7 and with its procedural safeguards that it balances civil liberties against the need to protect law-abiding citizens.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm pleased to be here to hear more about what a terrible, terrible tragedy this was. My condolences to all three of you and your families. Your words are all very touching for all of us. It doesn't matter how many years ago this was, it's still very real to all of us, as it is to you.

Bill S-7 that's before us, you've clearly reviewed it very well. Are you satisfied with the legislation as it stands now?

[Rob Alexander, Committee Member and Spokesperson, Air India 182 Victims Families Association]

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for allowing us to be here today. I will just carry on from Dr. Gupta's comments.

Today terrorism is an international phenomenon, and the terrorists in most cases have worldwide connections. Well-known examples include Spain, Indonesia, the U.K., Russia, India, Jordan, and many more. Recent cases of the Toronto 18 and Khwaja in Canada, and the millennium bomber in the U.S., involve Canadian connections and demonstrate that even today, 27 years after the Air India 182 bombing, Canada is not immune from terrorist attacks and attachments. The provisions of Bill S-7, if enacted into law, will help most importantly in preventing, and then investigating, and possibly prosecuting, terrorism offences.

I speak to you not as an expert in legal or constitutional matters, but as a Canadian victim of terrorism. I was 15, my brother was 9, my sister was only 11, and my mother 40 when my father, Dr. Mathew Alexander, was murdered in the terrorist bombing of Air India 182. He was going to visit his ailing mother back home in India, but never made it to see her. Our family was devastated in an instant—forever. Since then we have suffered pain and grief, which will continue with us throughout our lives. For that reason, we plead with all MPs to consider this outcome and keep Canada free from terrorism so that no Canadian will have to suffer what we have.

Investigative hearings can be helpful in preventing, investigating, and prosecuting terrorism offences. Let us not forget that the perpetrators of this serious crime of Air India 182 and its bombing are still roving free in Canada and elsewhere. Investigative hearings may be needed for effective ongoing criminal investigations. They were used once in the Air India 182 trial against Mrs. S. Reyat, and were found constitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada on June 23, 2004. If the identity of a Mr. X could have been determined, who was an alleged accomplice of Mr. Reyat and who stayed with the Reyat family for about a week, it could have potentially changed the course of that trial.

The prevention of terrorist acts is much more efficient and more humane than dealing with the aftermath of terrorism outcomes, which unfortunately we have first-hand experience of as victims' families. The recognizance-with-conditions provision will also help authorities in preventing terrorist acts. It will be an additional effective tool for the police and intelligence personnel in performing their duties. Successful use of this provision will disrupt the potential terrorist before they can carry out a terrorist act. Sadly, this tool was not available in 1985 to help prevent the Air India 182 bombing, which took so many Canadian lives.

The third provision in Bill S-7 proposes new offences of leaving or attempting to leave Canada to commit a terrorism offence. This is necessitated by the globalization of terrorism-related activities. There have been many reports of highly indoctrinated people from different parts of Canada leaving our soil to join terrorist training camps or terrorist training activities in other countries. Some of these individuals have reportedly disappeared and are presumed killed abroad, leaving their Canadian families to grieve. Also, these potential Canadian offenders may pose a potentially mortal threat and danger to members of our Canadian Armed Forces on duty abroad.

In our opinion, this provision will help in minimizing this dilemma. We believe the procedural safeguards clearly provided in Bill S-7 will be a strong and practical deterrent against misuse or abuse of these provisions.

In summary, we speak to you as persons living first-hand in the aftermath of the most heinous act of terrorism in Canadian history. Part of our mission is to speak out on terrorism issues to ensure that Canada is safer and more secure for its citizens now and in the future. We sincerely believe that Bill S-7, if enacted, will assist Canada in further combatting terrorism. Civil liberties are important, but they must be weighed against the potential violent consequences of a terrorist act against Canadians, and deterrents must be present to do so.

We request, plead, and urge all MPs to keep Canada free from terrorism so that no other Canadians will have to suffer what we have since June 1985.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak here today.

[Dr. Bal Gupta, Chair, Air India 182 Victims Families Association]

I will share my time with Mr. Alexander.

My name is Bal Gupta, and it has been my misfortune to have been coordinator and chair of Air India 182 Victims Families Association from 1985 onwards.

I thank you very much for giving us an opportunity to testify.

From the perspective of victims impacted most directly by the terrorist bombing of Air India Flight 182 on June 23, 1985, the Air India 182 Victims Families Association strongly supports Bill S-7. This bill proposes to re-enact the investigative hearings and recognizance-with-conditions measures that were in the original Anti-terrorism Act and expired in 2007.

Bill S-7 also proposes new offences of leaving or attempting to leave Canada to commit a terrorism offence. These provisions, if enacted into law, will help in prevention, criminal investigation, and prosecution of terrorism offences.

Lest we forget, let us remember some painful facts and the enormity of the Air India 182 tragedy, which was a result of a terrorist conspiracy conceived and executed on Canadian soil.

A single terrorist act killed 329 persons. Statistically, that is a higher ratio than the number of 9/11 victims in the U.S.A., keeping the population in mind. Most victims were Canadians, from Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia—all the provinces except P.E.I. Others came from many states in India and the U.S.A. They came from almost all religious backgrounds, including atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jain, Muslim, Sikh, and Zoroastrian. Eighty-six victims were children under the age of 12. Twenty-nine families—husband, wife, and all children—were wiped out. Thirty-two persons were left alone; the spouse and all the children were gone. Seven parents in their forties and fifties lost all their children, and two children, about the age of 10, lost both parents.

This was the largest terrorist act conceived and executed in Canada against Canadians, and it will continue to cause incalculable suffering and pain to thousands of friends and family members for decades to come.

In the Air India 182 bombing, I lost my wife, Ramwati, to whom I was married for over 20 years. In a tragic moment, I became a single parent to two young boys, aged 12 and 18 at the time. Even today, our family cannot enjoy the best of occasions in our lives because of the persistent, underlying inner grief and pain.

On the same day, a related act of terrorism involving a CP Air flight, a bomb explosion, killed two baggage handlers at Narita airport in Japan. This was followed by the murders of two important and prominent potential witnesses of a future Air India 182 trial—namely, two journalists, Mr. Tara Singh Hayer in British Columbia and Mr. Tarsem Purewal in the United Kingdom.

The intelligence and security agencies did not prevent the Air India 182 bombing. The eventual criminal trial in Canada, which took over 15 years to commence, failed to convict and punish the terrorists. The real culprits are still roaming free in Canada and elsewhere. The Air India 182 bombing, the largest act of terrorism in Canada, was not even—it is sad—recognized as a Canadian tragedy for over 20 years.

The Anti-terrorism Act was passed, and some terrorist entities or organizations were banned, only after 9/11 in the U.S.A., more than 16 years after Canada experienced the AI 182 bombing.

As families of the victims of the terrorist bombing of AI 182, we have suffered and continue to suffer incalculable grief and pain, which we do not wish to befall any other Canadian from future terrorist acts. AI 182 victims were mostly Canadians of East Indian origin, but make no mistake, the victims of the next terrorist act could be anybody. Terrorism cares little about a victim's colour, creed, gender, or age.

We, with first-hand experience of the effects of terrorism, ask all members of Parliament to protect Canadians by supporting the anti-terrorism measures in Bill S-7. There is no greater duty for the government than the protection of its law-abiding citizens.

[Maureen Basnicki, Co-founder, Canadian Coalition Against Terror]

Thank you for having me. Good afternoon.

My name is Maureen Basnicki. I'm here as a co-founder of C-CAT, the Canadian Coalition Against Terror.

C-CAT is a non-partisan advocacy body comprised of Canadian terror victims, counterterrorism professionals, lawyers, and other individuals committed to enhancing Canada's counterterrorism policies. We represent a unique constituency of Canadians of every background, religion, and political affiliation who have become victims of terrorism. Some of us lost a single relative, others lost entire families, and some of us were injured ourselves. Any of us could have been any of you, under different circumstances, but all of us are united in our determination to ensure that other potential victims of terror are spared the horror that we had to endure.

Over the last few weeks, I have read some of the transcripts of the debates and testimony regarding Bill S-7. I would like to direct my comments to several recurrent themes in the concerns raised by critics about the very nature and legitimacy of the provisions in this bill, relating to investigative hearings, recognizance with conditions, and leaving Canada to commit a terrorist offence.

Some critics question whether Bill S-7, regardless of any proposed revisions, is needed, whether the threat of terrorism really warrants provisions that they describe as a departure from powers traditionally available to investigate criminal offences. Others question whether these provisions will violate the rights of Canadians, or whether this bill is the beginning of the much-dreaded slippery slope that will ultimately result in the abrogation of constitutional rights at a later date. And still others question whether passage of this bill is handing the government a blank cheque of sorts that could lay the groundwork for the ever-expanding use of the controversial provisions—originally justified only on the basis of the extraordinary and tragic events of 9/11.

Summarized in the words of one MP, these critics feel that at best there is no balance in this bill between security and the fundamental rights of Canadians.

At the core of this critique lies what I find to be a remarkable supposition, that terrorism as a phenomenon has not amply demonstrated the justification and need for some rather modest enhancements to the powers of authorities investigating terrorism cases. We believe this supposition clearly flies in the face of the words of Justice Dorno, who presided over the Toronto 18 cases and stated bluntly that terrorism offences are abnormal crimes whose object is to strike fear and terror into citizens in a way not seen in any other criminal offences.

Justice Dorno is entirely correct, as well as the Appeals Court in the Khawaja case, which noted the unique nature of terrorism-related offences and the special danger these crimes pose to Canadian society.

As I have stated previously in other testimony before Parliament, terrorism is not simply a more pernicious form of organized crime. The primary interest of most criminals is personal gain of some sort, while the objective of terrorism is to fundamentally undermine, if not destroy, the society or country being targeted.

We need to look no further than the daily newspaper to be reminded of the ability of terrorists to destabilize entire countries or regions and to inflict violence at a level once reserved only for sovereign entities. But most chillingly, for terrorists there is no weapon or tactic, including weapons of mass destruction, that is inherently beyond contemplation. Acquiring weapons of mass destruction is a stated terrorist imperative, and the immediacy and magnitude of this threat has led some of the world's most prominent experts to conclude that a terrorist attack with unconventional weaponry may be all but inevitable.

Given the magnitude of this threat, we must therefore disagree with those critics who have stated that the legislators who introduced these measures in 2001 were simply hitting the panic button in the aftermath of the urgency created by the events of 9/11 and that there is no justification or urgency today that mandates their continued presence in the Criminal Code of Canada. This is not the case.

Far from being an overreaction to 9/11, these provisions were, in fact, a sober and responsible recognition of the danger posed by terrorism to the future of the international community. They were an acknowledgment that the western world had already tumbled down a slippery slope of another sort and had grossly misread the terrorist peril because of what the 9/11 commission referred to as a “failure of imagination”.

Today, in the aftermath of 9/11, lawmakers no longer need imagination to conceive of the unimaginable. They need legislative imagination to find better ways of navigating the competing concerns of security and liberty. I believe Bill S-7 has demonstrated that type of legislative imagination.

To suggest, as some have, that the supporters of this bill are soft on protecting constitutional rights is to ignore the fact that the vitality of a democracy is measured not only by its liberty but by its capacity and obligation to find a balance between those liberties and other concerns in uncharted waters.

Given the numerous safeguards, reporting requirements, and time limitations imposed on these provisions, we do not agree that Canadian legislators are betraying Canada's democratic ideals in seeking their passage. Rather, we see this bill as having found reasonable and effective accommodation in balancing what the Supreme Court of Canada has described as the “imperatives both of security and of accountable constitutional governance” while recognizing the truth of what British Minister of State Ian Pearson stated in the aftermath of the 2005 London bombings, that “...there is no human right more sacred than the right to be alive. Without this human right all others are impossible.”

As for concerns that some of these measures are a blank cheque that might be used by the government, the record clearly indicates otherwise. Even this bill's most vociferous critics have acknowledged that the authorities have scrupulously avoided utilizing these tools. In fact, they have never been used and therefore have never been abused. There is clearly no ravenous appetite in law enforcement to utilize these provisions.

This does not mean that they are not invaluable tools for contending with an ever-adapting and evolving enemy that presents a danger of unprecedented dimensions. If these provisions succeed just once in stopping a terrorist outrage, they will have more than served their purpose. While we agree that some of these provisions should be sparingly used, others, such as those that prevent individuals from leaving Canada to be trained as terrorists, must be aggressively advocated by anyone concerned with human rights and war crimes. If Canada can prevent individuals within its borders from seeking advanced training to commit the worst atrocities in countries around the world, it absolutely should.

If for some the concern regarding potential future abuse of these tools supersedes the concern for saving real lives from a very real and immediate threat, they should consider the following: by assisting authorities in interdicting a major terrorist incident, these rather modest provisions will have protected our justice system from the inevitability of coming under even greater pressure, in the aftermath of an attack, to enact measures even more stringent and controversial to protect Canadians from other attacks.

We therefore urge all MPs to approach Bill S-7 with the security of Canadians in mind. Canada should not be removing reasonable tools for fighting terrorism while terrorists are busy sharpening their tools for use against Canadians and other innocent victims. While the provisions of Bill S-7 can always be revisited at a later date, the lives shattered by a future terrorist attack that may have been prevented cannot be reconstituted by any act of Parliament.

As a Canadian who lost her husband on 9/11, I am a living example of just how true that is.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Good afternoon, everyone. This is meeting 62 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. It's Wednesday, November 28, 2012. Today our committee is continuing our study of Bill S-7, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Security of Information Act.

On our first panel testifying today, we will hear from Air India 182 Victims Families Association. We have Bal Gupta as the chair, who is present with us, and also Rob Alexander as a committee member and spokesperson. From the Canadian Coalition Against Terror, we have Maureen Basnicki, the co-founder and director.

Our committee thanks all of you for appearing before us today to help contribute in our work, and to help us understand a little more about issues that you've dealt with and how they may apply to Bill S-7.

My understanding is that you have different presentations or opening statements to bring, and then we'll go into a round of questions. Perhaps I will begin with Ms. Basnicki.

Could you open, please?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

When you testified before the Senate committee on Bill S-7, you noted there were a number of young Muslim Canadians becoming more and more radicalized in Toronto and leaving Canada to join terrorist camps in places like Somalia and Pakistan.

Are you aware of any situations where Canadians have travelled or attempted to travel from Canada to other countries, such as Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, or Yemen, to join terrorist organizations and to engage in terrorist-related activities?