Public Safety Committee on Nov. 26th, 2012

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

Yes, sir.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I gather that currently on the Toronto Police Service you have a good number of officers who would describe themselves as adherents to that faith.

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

Yes, absolutely, sir.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Do you believe that the Muslim community at large in Toronto, and specifically police officers, perceives this legislation—or any other legislation you've seen recently concerning terrorists and terrorism and making Canada a safer place in that regard—as unfairly or unjustly targeting adherents to the Muslim faith?

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

I would go back to my beginning in the hate crime unit in 1993. Certainly there are a number of communities that feel impacted by legislation and certain enforcement initiatives and certain legislation like this.

Certainly, right now, as the threat comes from the concern with Islamic extremists or those of the Muslim faith, the efforts in fact to move closer to them, not only by the Toronto Police, but as I said earlier.... I won't go far into the RCMP, but I am very familiar, on a day-to-day basis, with the outreach program in Toronto, in Ontario actually with the “O” Division national security enforcement team. In fact, we have worked very closely with them on a number of outreach initiatives we've done specifically with the Muslim community in both their private schools and their mosques.

Even last Saturday in Toronto, in the Trethewey Drive and Black Creek Drive area, there were some 200 members of the Muslim community who came out with what was a joint outreach program with the RCMP national security, with the local Toronto Police, and with CBSA, the Canada Border Services Agency.

I think the important part is the outreach, so that they better understand who we are, as people, and what we're doing, and how this law is not specific to them but to the issue. It is through outreach and that communication.

Within the Toronto Police we have a number of outreach initiatives with the Muslim community and other affected communities, not only in the national security realm. The chief has consultative committees. In fact, there is the Muslim consultative committee, which I have addressed a number of times over the years, particularly on hate crime and hate-related issues.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

What was the message you heard and what was the message you delivered? Please be as concise as you can because I have a follow-up question.

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

Okay.

Certainly, the whole issue of this law being specific to them—and we're quite clear that it is not. A large number of members of that community are very supportive of law enforcement, of this country, of Canada, of our initiatives, and they ultimately want to work and build better relationships with us so that the community as a whole better understands that we are not targeting them.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Do you feel that the message is getting across?

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

Yes, I do. In fact, it is improving. I'd say that every four or five months you see another inroad that is very significant for us.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

When you testified before the Senate committee on Bill S-7, you noted there were a number of young Muslim Canadians becoming more and more radicalized in Toronto and leaving Canada to join terrorist camps in places like Somalia and Pakistan.

Are you aware of any situations where Canadians have travelled or attempted to travel from Canada to other countries, such as Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, or Yemen, to join terrorist organizations and to engage in terrorist-related activities?

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

My short answer is yes, I am aware of that, but I am limited in what I can say. There are ongoing investigations.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I realize that.

I guess what I'm trying to ascertain is whether there appears to be an increase in that kind of recruitment and activity, from your perspective.

The assistant commissioner can also chime in, if he feels it's appropriate.

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

My short answer again is yes, we are seeing that, and it's limited in what I can provide.

I'll look to the assistant commissioner to add more detail.

[A/Commr James Malizia]

Well, sir, there's no doubt that international events do influence the number and types of investigations you're referring to. We are seeing a consistent volume of individuals being radicalized who are looking to travel abroad to either participate in, train for, or conduct terrorist acts.

The short answer is yes, we have. It is a serious concern for us, in the sense that individuals who do depart Canada right now, if we're not in a position to prevent them from leaving and they do end up in areas of the world where we might lose track of them.... The question is, once they've received training, what harm will come to either our allies or to ourselves if they decide to return to Canada? That is definitely a continuing concern for us.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm glad you mentioned the preventative side of this legislation, because it is a preventative measure.

If you don't mind me going back to the inspector, I would think, Inspector, that the community at large—in particular the parents and loving relatives of some of these youth who may be attracted to this—when you made the presentation, would be supportive of it.

Would you say that's occurring, once they know in actual fact what the legislation does?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Norlock.

Very quickly, please.

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

Yes, I absolutely believe that, sir, and I believe that's an important factor when the parents realize what their sons or their daughters have done—mostly their sons. Of course, there's a concern that some of them may actually die overseas in conflict, supporting what is a terrorist organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Inspector.

We'll now move to Mr. Scarpaleggia, please, for seven minutes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Again, I'm trying to clarify this point for myself

In the Criminal Code at the moment it is an offence to leave Canada to commit a terrorist offence, but I guess the burden of proof, or the standard of proof, is a little higher than under the new offence that is being created, because the new offence doesn't say you necessarily are going to commit an offence imminently; it simply says you're going to train. That's really the value of this new offence: the burden of proof is not as high, and, as you say, it allows you to keep track of individuals who otherwise might get lost overseas and you wouldn't know where they are.

Is that a correct interpretation of this?

[A/Commr James Malizia]

Yes, I would agree with that, sir.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In the past, under the existing Criminal Code offence, have you been able to charge people with going overseas for the purpose of creating an offence if they haven't actually gone ahead and done it? Have there been cases where you've been able to use that part of the code, or are these cases few and far between?

[A/Commr James Malizia]

Sir, the cases I'm aware of are individuals who actually departed Canada, trained, and then at that moment we gathered sufficient information—specific to this example, of course—to charge them after the fact.

[Insp Stephen Irwin]

Respectfully, if I could, there is one person—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Sorry.

Is this after the fact of committing the offence?

[A/Commr James Malizia]

After going through training, yes.