Evidence of meeting #61 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Geoffrey Leckey  Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère  Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
James Malizia  Assistant Commissioner, National Security Criminal Investigations and Protective Policing Branch, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Stephen Irwin  Inspector, Intelligence Division, Toronto Police Service

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good afternoon, everyone.

This is meeting number 61 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on Monday, November 26, 2012.

Today our committee is continuing our study of Bill S-7, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Security of Information Act. We are reducing the time we spend today with each panel by several minutes in order that we can have the last 15 minutes of the meeting for committee business.

On our first panel we are hearing from the Canada Border Services Agency. Geoffrey Leckey is the director general of intelligence and targeting operations, and Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère is executive director of the risk management and foresight division in the program branch. I understand that you have some opening statements and that you would be willing to take some questions afterwards.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

I have a point of order before we begin.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Scott.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

I was wondering if we could clarify what will be happening with the witnesses from the last meeting who either presented and were not questioned or who did not present at all.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

That is probably what we'll be discussing in future business.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Will that be in camera, or not in camera?

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All our future business is in camera.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

I wanted to be on record that we also suggested that the CSIS witnesses appear before us. It's not only government witnesses whom we have not had a chance to question.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

For sure.

Welcome, witnesses. We look forward to your comments.

Mr. Leckey.

3:30 p.m.

Geoffrey Leckey Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, honourable members. My colleague and I are pleased to be here today. My name is Geoff Leckey and I am the director general of the enforcement and intelligence operations directorate in the operations branch of the Canada Border Services Agency.

I have with me today Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère, who is the executive director of the risk management and foresight division in the programs branch.

As part of the public safety portfolio, the CBSA is responsible for ensuring Canada's security and prosperity by managing the access of people and goods coming to and departing from Canada.

Though the agency's involvement in Bill S-7 is minimal, our day-to-day operations support the government's counterterrorism objectives. Today, I will focus my comments on the role that border management plays in the national security continuum.

Since its creation, the CBSA has been an integral component of Canada's national security policy by ensuring effective border management. To this end, the agency maintains close and productive relationships with its portfolio and other law enforcement partners at home and abroad.

Managing the border in today's complex world calls on our people to use a variety of skills and technology efficiently and effectively behind the scenes and when dealing directly with traders and travellers.

As you may know, the agency is responsible for enforcing the Customs Act, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, and over 90 other acts of Parliament, including the Anti-terrorism Act. To deliver effectively in these responsibilities, the CBSA recently opened a new state-of-the-art training facility in Rigaud, Quebec, to train border services officers in interviewing, examination, and investigative techniques. The college is key to our ability to perform our duties in providing excellence in border services.

As I stated earlier, the agency's role in this legislation, Bill S-7, is minimal, but we are supportive because the justice system and the law enforcement community need improved tools to interdict those individuals within Canada who engage in terrorist activity.

The CBSA plays a key role in Canada's counterterrorism strategy as a border security agency. While the agency is not directly mandated to investigate, identify, arrest or prosecute terrorists specifically, it does perform two essential security activities: denying terrorists entry into Canada and collecting and reporting on counterterrorism targets.

To achieve these outcomes, the CBSA collaborates on immigration security screening and admissibility screening of known or suspected terrorists with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and with Citizenship and Immigration Canada. It also employs intelligence-based targeting to assist in counter-terrorism and strategic export controls of commercial shipments. The CBSA liaison officer network works to prevent inadmissible persons from coming to Canada. Border services officers also enforce export controls on goods and currency.

In addition, BSOs have participated in extensive program development and training and the use of detection technology so that they can conduct effective, non-intrusive examinations where possible. For example, the agency uses digital fingerprint machines to capture fingerprints, which are then sent electronically to the RCMP central registry for verification. Faster and more efficient front-end security checks ensure that those who may be criminally inadmissible to Canada are not permitted to enter.

Agency officials regularly work with immigration organizations overseas to identify emerging trends in irregular migration and document fraud. They also participate in joint activities designed to prevent the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and their delivery systems.

The CBSA processes a staggering number of travellers and goods entering Canada each year. In the last year, the CBSA processed 93 million travellers, 29 million vehicles, and released 13 million commercial shipments. In order to balance the joint mandates of facilitation and national security, the CBSA applies a layered risk management approach to its intelligence and enforcement activities. The agency works with its key partners such as Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the RCMP, CSIS, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection so that it can effectively focus its efforts on areas of high or unknown risk.

As you can see, partnerships are key to the CBSA's effectiveness in border management and national security. The CBSA is a critical law enforcement partner because of its ability to turn the information it collects into intelligence about possible national security threats, including terrorism. The CBSA shares this information with its key domestic partners such as the RCMP and CSIS.

The CBSA also partners with international customs and immigration organizations to implement the terms of international agreements. The Beyond the Border action plan with the United States is a prime example of such a partnership. It assists the CBSA and its U.S. counterparts in ensuring that the border remains open to secure trade and travel but is closed to crime and terrorism.

Mr. Chair, while our role under this proposed legislation is minimal, the agency's mandate continues to be the first line of defence to ensure the safety and security of Canadians.

This concludes my opening statement.

Mr. Aubertin-Giguère and I would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Leckey.

We'll move into the first round of questioning. It's a seven-minute round.

We'll go to Ms. Findlay, please, for seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you both for being here.

I just want to get it straight in my mind: what are your respective positions again with CBSA?

3:35 p.m.

Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency

Geoffrey Leckey

My position is the director general within the operations branch. There are two main branches within the CBSA: operations and programs. Within operations I'm the director general of what we call enforcement and intelligence. Enforcement comprises our criminal investigations division and our inland enforcement division.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

And Mr. Aubertin-Giguère?

November 26th, 2012 / 3:40 p.m.

Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

I'm the executive director of the risk management and foresight division within the program branch.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

Thank you.

When Professor Martin Rudner testified on Bill S-7 before the Senate committee on April 2, 2012, he noted that various terrorist organizations see it as necessary to reach out and get human resources for the struggle for the downfall of the apostolate regimes and to prepare in fact for the next stage, which is the declaration of a caliphate, to be followed by the total confrontation with the infidels.

They see themselves reaching out to citizens of western countries in particular, in part to gain passports—their right to travel freely—in part to get local knowledge and networks, and in part to get skills. The kinds of people they target are young, single, physically fit people with higher education, especially in science and technology, and people who have become highly motivated through radicalization and are committed to jihadist ideology.

If your opinion, do you agree that terrorism remains the greatest threat to Canada's national security at this time?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency

Geoffrey Leckey

My answer to that would be yes.

As I explained in my introduction, we take a risk-based approach to the work we do and to deciding where we need to concentrate our resources to interdict people and groups from entering Canada that may threaten Canada and Canadians.

When we talk about a risk-based approach—and my colleague is more of an expert in this than I am—we mean a threat. There are any number of potential threats to Canada and Canadians that could be identified. When we say “risk”, we mean “threat” placed within the context of probability and impact.

Now there are many threats that are highly probable but would be of low impact. There are many threats that are extremely improbable but would be extremely high-impact; 9/11 would be an example of that.

So we work on a constant basis to reassess threats and to place them within a risk-profiling paradigm to identify where we need to place our resources to best protect Canada and Canadians.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

Thank you.

We also heard in the Senate committee on Bill S-7 testimony about the radicalization of some young Muslim Canadians.

I'm wondering if you are aware of any situations where Canadians have travelled or attempted to travel from Canada to other countries—I'm thinking of Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, and Yemen—to join terrorist organizations and engage in terrorist-related activities. Is this something you've been aware of?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency

Geoffrey Leckey

This is a reality.

Within the Canadian security intelligence community, there are a number of people who are aware of such travel having taken place in the past. The existence of legislation such as S-7 could help to prevent it, to the extent that such travel could be learned about in advance.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

It's already illegal to knowingly participate in the activities of a terrorist group for the purpose of enhancing the ability of a terrorist group to carry out an act of terrorism, and that might include receiving or providing training, say, at a terrorist training camp. We certainly know that in 2008 Mr. Khawaja was convicted of that offence for receiving training in Pakistan, and his conviction was subsequently upheld by the Ontario Court of Appeal. Leave to appeal before the Supreme Court of Canada has been granted.

Our government decided to create new offences, of leaving Canada or attempting to leave Canada for the purpose of committing a terrorism offence.

Do you see this as a useful new offence? Do you support this?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency

Geoffrey Leckey

Yes, absolutely, we support it.

You're correct, of course, that it's already an offence to take training for the purpose of supporting the activities of a terrorist group, and Mr. Khawaja was convicted for that very offence.

I'd refer you to the Government of Canada's counter-terrorism strategy, called Building Resilience Against Terrorism. It has four pillars: prevent, detect, deny, and respond. In the case of Mr. Khawaja, we were mainly in the world of responding. I think the government is trying to move its resources in the security intelligence community more into the world of “prevent, detect, and deny”, because those are worlds that it's much better to be in. Anything we can do that would forestall or nip in the bud or cut off a potential terrorist activity before it happens, even before an individual leaves Canada, we consider to be a strengthening of the tools we have at our disposal.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

In other words, you're talking about law enforcement and the intelligence community being able to intervene at an earlier stage in the planning process. Is that correct?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency

Geoffrey Leckey

That's correct; that's the ideal place to be.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Scott, please, for seven minutes.