Bill C-9 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (Canada Emergency Rent Subsidy and Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy)

This enactment amends the Income Tax Act to revise the eligibility criteria, as well as the level of subsidization, under the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS) as part of the response to the coronavirus disease 2019. It also extends the CEWS to June 30, 2021. The enactment further amends the Income Tax Act to introduce the Canada Emergency Rent Subsidy (CERS) in order to support those hardest hit by the coronavirus disease 2019. This subsidy provides relief in respect of rent and interest on debt obligations incurred to acquire real property used by businesses, charities and not-for-profit organizations in the course of their businesses or other activities. The rent subsidy is effective as of September 27, 2020.

Income Tax Act

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Madam Chair, will the minister commit to doing forecasting as opposed to what she has been saying for the last three hours. that she does not do hypotheticals, which are hypotheticals?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we committed in the Speech from the Throne to offer detailed fiscal projections in the fall economic update and we will do that. We are not going to—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Madam Chair, will the minister commit to the debt-to-GDP ratio not increasing above 100%?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I was clear in my speech last week on our fiscal guide rail approach and fiscal anchor approach.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, on May 14, I offered many different solutions to the old rent program. Could the Minister of Finance tell us today how many businesses were turned down under that old program?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, it was wonderful to work with you as the critic. I think you will agree with me that what we have here as legislation really is responsive to those businesses—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Before I go to the hon. member, I want to remind the hon. minister that she is to address her questions through the Chair.

The hon. member.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, how many businesses do we expect to apply under this new program?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, every small business that is eligible should apply to this program.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, under the design of this new program, did the department do a sectoral analysis before designing both these programs, the wage subsidy and the rental program?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, today's legislation is about helping businesses continue to pay for payroll and to pay for that important fixed cost, including that lockdown support.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, did the minister consult the provinces on a design of this new program?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I am delighted to say that I had many conversations with provincial and territorial ministers of finance about this program and their comments were—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, in designing this program, why did the minister select June 21 as the extension date?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, that is the date that is the extension date for the wage subsidy and it is important for the two programs—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, does the minister expect the economy to be fully open by June 21?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, what I expect is that Canadian businesses and Canadians can now rest easy knowing we have programs in place until then.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, would the minister agree that the private sector has taken the initiative through rapid testing, particularly in travel agencies doing some test cases, and that program should be expanded so that we can get people back to work?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I have huge respect for the private sector and I am so thrilled that so many Canadians are back at work, that 76% of Canadian jobs are back. I am grateful for all—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, will the minister consider, instead of doing an economic update, doing a full budget this fall?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we have been clear. We committed in the Speech from the Throne to do a fall economic update and that is what we are going to do.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, would the minister agree that increased exports are needed to increase revenue, given the debt that we are loading and that should be a critical component of any fiscal plan?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, to the hon. member, this is exactly why we announced the expanded CanExport program and why, in the other room right now, I had a virtual trade—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, would the Minister of Finance recognize the importance of a strong resource sector in the recovery and part of the great economic restart?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, of course we recognize the importance of a strong resource sector. We think we need to have a very strong, robust economy for future generations, particularly for my daughters, Nanki and Kirpa, who are watching tonight.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, would the minister agree then, in the economic clusters that were developed, that the resource sector was not included and should be included as a strong sector that we want to see rebound?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Madam Chair, we recently announced $100 million for the Clean Resource Innovation Network. This network invests in the oil and gas sector and the technologies that will enable us to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and make sure we leave a bright future for our children—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for a 10-second question.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, is the Minister of Finance aware that the Mayor of Edmonton had asked for $240 million toward homelessness and we received $17 million in the rapid housing initiative?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I am delighted to hear Conservatives talking about homelessness in Edmonton. That is a big focus of ours. We are delighted to work with Mayor Iveson. We will keep on doing that. He is doing a great job on homelessness.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Chair, I am glad the government has finally listened to some of the Conservative recommendations from back in May to allow businesses to recuperate lost revenue without being worse off from clawbacks.

Today I heard from a Lakeland farmer who was not eligible for CEBA because he was a sole proprietor. He waited months for the change to allow non-deferrable expenses, but then his application was rejected because his feed invoices are not on a company letterhead. Farmers mainly buy feed from local producers, not big companies.

Could the minister confirm that the bill fixes this issue?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, right from the very beginning, we wanted to support those farming businesses. I am happy to look into this, and into this specific case.

Of course businesses that meet the $40,000 non-deferrable expense will get access to CEBA.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Chair, Canadian business owners going to the border for visas or to pick up supplies have been forced to quarantine, but U.S. billionaires from UPS, Costco and Uline have been exempted. Why?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, right from the very beginning, our commitment was to ensure that we keep Canadians safe from COVID and—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Chair, the public safety minister said the CBSA exemptions for American executives were mistakes, but the foreign affairs minister said he actually granted almost 200 of them for business mobility.

Canadian small business owners have to quarantine and some owner-operator businesses have to close for two weeks when they cross the border. Why is the government putting American interests ahead of Canadians?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, I want to make it abundantly clear that we have had protocols and procedures in place that protect Canadians. We work with local health authorities to make sure that we advance measures to keep Canadians safe, and that will continue to be our policy going forward.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Chair, I want to cite specific cases, just so we can illustrate the double standard here. I hope the Liberals can find a fix for Canadian small businesses.

I just heard about a small business owner in B.C. who was told, in advance, by CBSA that he could go 300 yards across the border to retrieve supplies, yet when he came back CBSA agents told him he had to quarantine for 14 days. He has to close his business or significantly reduce operations, obviously at the very worst time.

Why is the government granting quarantine exemptions to well-connected American billionaires but not to Canadian small business owners?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Madam Chair, we are, of course, very mindful of the difficulties the crisis has created for many Canadians. We would all like for the crisis not to exist and for the pandemic to be away from us. That will come at some point, but until then, CBSA border officials and various departments are doing all they can to protect both the integrity of the system and provide some peace of mind to all Canadians.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Chair, Canadians have gone to the border for a visa so they could work. They are given paperwork stating that they were not actually in the U.S. by American border officials, and then when they come back, CBSA tells them to quarantine, that they must stay home from their jobs and lose a paycheque for two weeks.

Again, U.S. billionaires get free access to come into Canada, travel around freely and skip quarantine. How is that fair? How does that help Canadians and Canadian businesses survive financially?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, indeed, to make businesses thrive and survive going through the crisis and to help workers as well is a central piece of our economic agenda. That is why we are here tonight, together. We want this bill and these pieces of legislation to go forward exactly for that purpose, to support our small and other businesses in Canada.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

This is the problem, Madam Chair. The inconsistency, uncertainty and lack of clarity are hurting Canadians but helping Americans. The government gave the American UPS president an exemption to come to Canada to push the Teamsters union into a new contract. He was not delivering packages for UPS. He could have held his meetings by video like the rest of the world is forced to do, but the government let him in, with no quarantine required.

Canadian small business owners are being forced to quarantine in their own country, with no exemptions for them. They literally have to put their lives and livelihoods on hold for two weeks. How can small businesses survive when there is one set of rules under the Liberals for wealthy American elites and another set for working Canadians and Canadian small business owners?

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. minister has 15 seconds.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

There would be a lot more to say that I can say in just 15 seconds, Madam Chair, but exactly the purpose of our meeting tonight is to support and help businesses, and small businesses in particular, get through the crisis, keep their workers and be prepared for when the crisis is over.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, I congratulate you for your rigour and I also congratulate your predecessors. This is an interesting system.

According to a survey by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, Quebec's SMEs will need an average of $25,000 to cover their fixed costs to the end of the year.

Has the government considered providing assistance for fixed costs for SMEs, whether they are landlords or tenants?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, I appreciate that important question. That is exactly why we are here tonight: to debate this important piece of legislation to give those businesses the help that they need for those important fixed costs like rent, in addition to the lockdown support that businesses will need in an effort to fight COVID-19.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, Quebec has already taken steps to help certain Quebec companies and SMEs pay their fixed costs. In Canada, these consist solely of mortgage interest, property taxes and insurance. Quebec has added telecommunications expenses, permits, gas and electricity bills, and association fees.

Why is Canada not providing assistance that is this effective, generous and accessible to corporate tenants?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, I am thrilled to have met with a number of female business owners in Quebec who have been able to take advantage of the emergency supports that we have had. The CEBA loan, which is a small-business loan, helps give businesses that additional flexibility and working capital to help bridge through expenses like the ones the member just talked about.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, I would really appreciate it if my colleague would listen and answer the question. We see that in this version of Bill C-9, the federal assistance will end in June 2021.

Will there be a transitional measure for companies and organizations that operate in certain sectors where business is seasonal?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, it is really important that we provide support to all Canadian small and medium-sized businesses, and that is what tonight's legislation is about. We committed to helping them with payroll costs, with fixed costs like rent, and with that important lending support so that they could get by and manage their businesses during this time.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, I did not hear the answer to the previous question because the interpretation was not working.

I will continue with another question.

If some organizations want to start operating again in the next high season and want to prepare well in advance of collecting their main source of income, will there be some assistance for tourism, culture, festivals and summer camps, for example, to get through the summer season?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, we have provided a range of program supports for businesses, and the regional development office in Quebec, CED-Q, provides additional support for those businesses that may not have access to the other programs that we have.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, it is all well and good to want to extend the program until 2021, but what will the parameters be as of January 2021? We know that business owners need predictability. We only know the parameters until December 31, 2020. What will they be after that?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, absolutely, I agree with the member that businesses need this predictability. This is why we have this legislation here. What businesses can rely on is that there will be support all the way until June, and—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, once again, she did not answer my question.

Rent assistance must be given to those who need it, particularly to home-based businesses.

Will the program be adapted to that reality? Will there be provisions in the budget for the fixed costs of entrepreneurs who run a business out of their home?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, we have provided a wide range of supports, from the CEBA loan to the wage subsidy as well as this commercial rent subsidy for businesses. It is a wide range of program supports that we are providing Canada's entrepreneurs and businesses.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, many business owners have paid a lot of money in interest charges since the beginning of the pandemic.

Will the assistance that has been announced enable business owners to pay off all of the interest charges they have incurred?

Is there a cap? How much can a business owner be reimbursed for?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, this is where I am very happy to talk about the Canada emergency business account, which is interest-free: $40,000 is now going up to $60,000. Of that, $20,000 is forgivable, and it is interest-free.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, the question is, when will business owners have the money in their account? Can we have a date, for the sake of predictability?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, our commitment is to make sure those businesses are supported with that liquidity.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Madam Chair, I would like to use my five minutes to ask questions of my hon. colleague, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance. On behalf of my constituents, I want to thank her for her tremendous work throughout this pandemic. She has been a real leader and I want to make sure that is on the record.

Unlike the member of Parliament for Carleton, who would ask a two-second question and expect a two-second response, I would like the minister to have the opportunity to answer the questions because I really do want to hear from her.

This bill deals with, of course, the wage subsidy and the rent subsidy, which are two really important programs. I have heard that from my constituents, particularly the wage subsidy for tourism-related businesses.

Can the minister speak to how these programs will remain the same, or to some of the changes, particularly as it relates to the rent subsidy?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his really hard work, not only representing his riding, but also speaking for rural Canada. I always appreciate his advice on these issues.

When it comes to his question about what is so valuable about the measures all of us are supporting in this House tonight, we are now going to be able to say to small businesses across the country they will get up to 65% of their wages covered and up to 90% of their rent covered if they are subject to a local lockdown. Let us not forget about the expansion of CEBA, up to—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Madam Chair, the point about the lockdown is extremely important. Here in Nova Scotia, we have been very blessed with the Atlantic bubble, and we have not seen some of the issues that other areas of the country have.

Could the minister go into a bit more detail on what that lockdown measures means for businesses being forced to shut down?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I am glad the member mentioned the Atlantic bubble. This was controversial when Atlantic premiers first introduced it. The significant restrictions they—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I am sorry, but the time is up.

The hon. member.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Madam Chair, I appreciate we have to have a similar amount of time for the answers and the questions, but I do hope you will let the hon. minister answer the questions if she has the ability to do so.

I want to ask about our government's overall vision. I know the minister had to speak in two forums in Montreal and Toronto. For my constituents who might not have been able to see that, my question is this: What is the government's economic vision moving forward?

We have done a very good job trying to put out measures to help support businesses and individuals. There is a lot of uncertainty about what the future looks like, but can she summarize for my constituents and all Canadians about where our vision is in the days ahead?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I would summarize our plan this way: Right now the focus for all of us needs to be fighting the second wave of the coronavirus, and for the government and all members of the House to be supporting Canadians and Canadian businesses as we get through that fight. Then, once the virus is vanquished, it is going to be time for all of us to turn our attention to investing for a roaring-back Canadian economy. We have been talking about that, too, a lot tonight, and that is going to be something we are going to be well positioned to do, and I know that we are all going to contribute to that effort.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Madam Chair, as the hon. minister mentioned, I come from a rural riding. I am very proud to be the rural caucus chair of our governing party.

Agriculture is an industry that matters across the country, but indeed in my riding of Kings—Hants we have a very diversified mix of commodity groups. I will go on record saying that when it is safe to do so, I hope the hon. minister will consider coming and having a Tidal Bay glass of wine down in Kings—Hants. We would love to see her.

As it relates to the agricultural sector writ large, I know we have had investments. Can she speak to how it would be important for our government in the days ahead to partner with the industry to make sure it is part of the economic recovery?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, agriculture is so key to the Canadian economy. It is key to Canadian society and Canadian communities. I think we should all be proud of our farmers, and of course agriculture and our farmers are going to be a key part. They are a key part of our economic—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for London—Fanshawe.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, before I ask questions, I just want to acknowledge that the NDP has worked hard on this to push the government to improve its legislation, and I wanted to thank my colleagues for that. Sadly, it took a long time, but I also want to speak to the incredible resilience of the small and medium-sized businesses in my riding. They have shown dedication to their craft, and loyalty to their clients and their employees. I want to also give special thanks to the Argyle and Hamilton Road BIAs. They have often advocated for their members throughout this pandemic and fought alongside them for their survival.

In London—Fanshawe, I also wanted to tell the House about Matilda, who owns Enchanté Hair Studio, and Melanie, who owns Madison's Boutique & Consignment. Their landlord refused to apply for the government's first failed commercial rent program.

What is the government doing to make sure this new program undoes the damage of the first?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I would like to thank the member opposite for her visible hard work on behalf of her constituents and the businesses in her riding.

What we are talking about tonight is a very substantial, comprehensive set of measures that will help Canadian businesses, like the ones the member opposite has described in her riding, going forward. The rent subsidy means 65% of rent covered and up to 90% if they are subject to a local lockdown, and that goes back to September 27. The wage subsidy is up to 65% of wages covered, and, of course, there is CEBA, which we are going to expand so businesses can get a 60% loan—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for London—Fanshawe.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, there is also an incredible Lebanese restaurant in south London. The owners are still trying to catch up on debts because they were not eligible for CECRA. They are just one example of so many in my riding.

Will the minister ensure this new rental subsidy program is retroactive from the start of the pandemic to help these businesses recover?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, the member opposite makes me want to go dine in London, Ontario with that description.

This program will apply from September 27. It is focused on the future and provides really generous support for businesses.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, the minister has said that the answer for companies that need help is they should go further into debt. Is that her only solution? Does she truly believe that is the most help her government can provide?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we are talking tonight about providing really significant support for enterprises, with up to 65% of wages covered. That is a grant, not a loan.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, businesses cannot take on bigger loans. It just puts them further into debt. She does not understand.

There are several cultural clubs in my riding that provide an incredible connection for their members through their history, culture, language and identities. Several clubs survive by hosting events, celebrations and ceremonies and that cannot happen now because of COVID—19.

These clubs own their own land and their buildings, so they are not eligible for the programs under the former or the currently proposed programs, and they are drowning in debt from other fixed costs. Is there a plan to help these clubs?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I will conclude my answer to the last question, because it is important for Canadians to understand. Neither the wage subsidy nor the rent subsidy involve additional debt for businesses. These are straight grants from the government to Canadian enterprises. I agree that is what Canadian enterprises need. That is why we are going to be there for them.

I would also like to point out a new feature of the rent support program. It is available not only to enterprises that are renters but also to support enterprises and entities that are—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, why did this government choose not to make the program retroactive to April?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, our focus is on keeping businesses that are viable today viable going—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair, a constituent in my riding named Matthew fears the loss of his job. He works for a company that has a few franchises. In this new program proposed by the Liberals, they have placed a $300,000 cap on support provided to businesses. However, for companies that are franchises with a few locations, many rents can add up quickly and $300,000 does not cover them for very long or at all. Would the government consider increasing that cap?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I think the New Democratic Party shares our government's absolute focus on helping the small businesses that need the support the most. That is what this program has been—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, I am going to be asking questions of the Minister of Finance. I want to really focus in on those issues that are important to my riding and have been expressed to me by many businesses and farmers.

As was already alluded to by the member for Lakeland, a lot of our farmers have had trouble accessing the CEBA account. I want to ensure the current forms of the new wage subsidy and rent subsidy will not involve any problems with people accessing them if they do not have business bank accounts, which is so important to sole proprietorships.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Madam Chair, I appreciate the member's excellent question. The idea is exactly what the Minister of Finance said earlier, which is to make sure that everything is put into place so that businesses in his riding and across Canada have access to the type of support that they need according to their conditions in the current crisis.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Therefore, Madam Chair, in the situation of a sole proprietorship that does not have a business account, or may not even have a business registration number with the Government of Canada because as a farm it is GST exempt and is not collecting taxes on behalf of the government, will the business owner be able to access these programs if they are eligible?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, again I am very pleased to support and repeat what the Minister of Finance said very clearly earlier, which is that the objectives of this very important piece of legislation are to support business owners in a very difficult time, and to be adapted to their specific—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon member.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, I am going to hold the minister to account on this because I really do believe that we want to make sure that business owners can access it. Right now, we know on the CEBA program that if people do not have a business registration number with Revenue Canada they do not qualify. To me, that is discriminatory against those sole proprietorships.

I will ask the minister one more time: Will the Liberals make sure, for these new programs as well as for CEBA, which is currently in effect, that they get rid of the requirement for business registration numbers for sole proprietorships, especially for farmers?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, I want to thank the hon. member for that question and for his great advocacy for small business owners, particularly for those farmers who operate on a personal account. We announced, and of course it is being made available, the CEBA loan for those very business owners who operate on a personal account.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, I can tell the minister that I was talking to one of our local farm families, and they have been told by their financial institution that, because they do not have a business registration number with Revenue Canada, they do not qualify. Therefore, I am going to ask the minister to let them contact her. Will she make sure that they get access to the CEBA program?

I want to switch gears a bit and follow up on some of the questions that were asked by my colleague from Brandon—Souris.

In rural Canada, fairs, festivals and rodeos are the backbone of our communities during the summer. Of course, right now, they are really struggling. In 2009 and 2010, I was proud when our former Conservative government announced the marquee tourism events program: $100 million over two years. Does the Minister of Finance plan to bring forward any support for our fairs and festivals across this country?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, I am very familiar with the marquee tourism initiative. Unfortunately, I also remember I was an opposition member at that time, and that program discriminated against certain organizations.

In our investments, we have made sure that we have an open process that enables many organizations to take advantage of such initiatives. That is why we have invested $1.5 billion through the regional development agencies to advance such programs and assist such associations, as well as $500 million through the Minister of Canadian Heritage, in his fund, to assist these types of organizations.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, I can tell the member that fairs, festivals, special events and cultural events are waiting with bated breath, because there have been no announcements or support offered by the government. I think the government needs to make sure that there are dollars rolling out, because nobody has seen a single red cent yet.

Again, one thing that is important in my riding is tourism. I know that our independent travel agencies are struggling and our youth camps are struggling. I know that Camp Arnes, Camp Massad, Gimli Bible Camp and Camp Cedarwood are looking for some level of support.

Beyond the wage and rent subsidies, can the government guarantee that some of those dollars will flow to our camps, so that they can be there in operation for our youth in the future?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, for those businesses that are so terribly hard hit, we absolutely want to see them supported through this very difficult time of COVID-19, and we are going to need to keep working together on this.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Chair, in the town of St. Thomas, it was recently announced that the Marriott was closing its doors. The Marriott hired over 500 individuals, mostly women. At this time, they have all lost their jobs and are looking for new ones. Multiple sectors just like this have also been hit hard, but specifically the tourism sector. I am wondering what the next steps are that this government is going to take to reopen Canada.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, I want to thank the hon. member for her advocacy and her hard work, particularly for her community and so many of the incredible businesses there. I know how much she cares and how hard she works for them.

The broad-based emergency supports are there to help our businesses, but remember that the fight we are fighting right now is the COVID-19 fight.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Chair, just yesterday, this government voted against our opposition day motion to delay audits for small businesses receiving the wage subsidy program. I fully believe in accountability and transparency, but why did this government choose to vote against it?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Madam Chair, in June, my Conservative colleagues were clamouring for more audits of the emergency response programs.

Now they want fewer audits of a program that has paid out $45 billion to 1.4 million applicants. The Conservatives need to make up their minds.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Chair, I am really not sure where we are going with this. I am just asking why they did not support the motion. That is one of the greatest concerns.

We know that small businesses are being kicked right now when they are down. Why is the government asking for this documentation at a time that is very difficult, as many small business owners are working additional hours filling in all of these gaps? Why is the government not giving them a break right now?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, that is what the legislation is about. It is about keeping the work, continuing the work and building on what we need to do to help businesses with those fixed costs and help them with the wage subsidy. When I see some of these businesses that are so resilient, they have pivoted because of being able to get a—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Chair, right now, I am talking to small business owners, restaurant owners, who are working 12 to 14 hours a day. They have to go home now and get all of this documentation, and it is expected within two weeks. Why is the government asking for this documentation right now with such a short turnaround?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, as someone who grew up in a family business, I know what working those very long hours are all about. That is exactly how we put these programs together. These programs are specifically to help those hard-hit businesses.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Chair, I am going to pivot here, because we are talking about documentation at a very busy time, but we have heard the exact same excuse when we ask for documents regarding WE and these other programs. Why is it okay for small businesses that are extremely busy at this time, closing their businesses and losing employees, all of those great things? Why is it okay for the government to ask for documents, but the government will not give documents?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Madam Chair, I fully support the importance of transparency and providing information and I do, indeed, want to assure the MP that we are doing precisely that. The open government portal is providing over 300 different files with all sorts of documentation related strictly to COVID-19 and the—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Chair, I very much appreciate that Liberals want to be accountable, but I just heard from the Conservative finance critic that back in 2019, they did not bring a long-term fiscal update and we are looking at accountability for that.

The finance minister is saying that this fall she is going to be bringing forward a fiscal update. I am wondering what “this fall” means. Does it actually mean December 21, the last day of fall, just like the Liberals did with the fiscal update in 2018, or does it mean that they are going to bring it in the next two months?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, because the time that we have to discuss these important issues is always limited, I was going to add that the GC InfoBase provides hundreds of pages of detailed information on various budgetary estimates in support of the crisis.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Yes, Madam Chair, they are up to date until July, I guess. Are these redacted documents or are these actually for all of us to see?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I am delighted to say that these pieces of information are on the Internet. If people click on it, they see them immediately.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Madam Chair, the government's rent subsidy program failed so many Canadians because the application was too complicated and it relied on landlords making the application. A number of worthy businesses in my riding that really needed the help just did not qualify, but I am so happy to see that the government, in Bill C-9, has picked up on some of the suggestions from the Conservative Party.

My question is about another group of Canadian businesses that the government has left behind, and that is businesses that do not rent but own the buildings where they do business. For example, Jasmine in my riding runs a very successful retail business in beautiful historic Fort Langley. She has worked hard all of her life. Her savings went into buying the building where her business is. The irony is that she would qualify for the rent subsidy, but she owns the building. Her mortgage company has just recently called and threatened foreclosure.

Is there help for Jasmine?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, obviously, to answer categorically, one would need to know the specific details, but this rent support also covers interest payments. It is not only for rent. If someone has an interest payment on a building, that is covered too.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Madam Chair, that is good. When is help going to be on the way? Is this a program that is going to be implemented as soon as the bill is passed?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, let us get it passed in the House, let us get it through the Senate and then we can get it out to Canadians.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Madam Chair, I have a question about the wage subsidy program, which has been a very important program to keep businesses afloat, but it of course required businesses have employees. I have spoken to a lot of businesses that wanted to hire people, but they felt they were competing with the government CERB program.

For example, Gordon in my riding runs a very successful landscaping business. He had the opportunity to expand that business to build cedar fences, but he could not get people to work for him because people were at home collecting CERB. People like Gordon are competing with the government for good employees.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, I think the hon. member would agree that supporting Canadians in the fight against COVID-19 is something we all agree is a good thing to do. At the same time we are making sure those very businesses are supported to get the employees and to pay for those costs so that we can have these businesses continue to bridge through better times. In fact, dare I say, some of them have been thriving during this time. Using the wage subsidy is helping them get through this and this is the—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Madam Chair, I think $10 billion is the answer to the very simple question the member for Carleton put forward to the Minister of Finance. I believe that the Minister of Finance said that the total debt is about $1 trillion. That is a “1” with 12 zeros. Then 1% moves the decimal over two, so it is a “1" with 10 zeros, which I think $10 billion.

Incidentally, that is the number that was being discussed in earlier debate today as the amount of money required to complete the universal pharmacare program. Is my math correct?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I would really like to ask the Conservatives to be clear with Canadians and maybe even to be clear with themselves as to what they are driving at. We know what the NDP believes in. We know what the Bloc believes in, but the Conservatives right now seem to be struggling. On one hand they are concerned enterprises in their ridings are not getting enough support from the government, but on the other hand they seem obsessed with debt and deficits. Conservatives really owe it—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Madam Chair, we are all being kept in suspense. We all want to sleep well tonight.

Is my math correct? Is it $10 billion?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we are being kept in suspense too. The Conservatives need to decide what they stand for.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, we stand for common sense. The question is, how would a 1% increase in interest rates affect the national debt?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, the question is, what is the Conservative Party's policy? Is it a policy of austerity, or is it a policy of supporting businesses?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, earlier the minister called this a hypothetical question. There is nothing hypothetical about the debt. How would an increase in interest rates affect the $1-trillion national debt?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, it is actually a question of policy, a question of philosophy.

Our philosophy is to support businesses. I want to know what the Conservatives' policy is.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, the minister will be able to ask lots of questions once I am on the other side of the House and she is in the opposition. That will be soon.

She is unable to answer questions. Let's try another one. The Auditor General asked for more money so she can audit this government's massive spending. Will the minister give the Auditor General the money she asked for, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Madam Chair, I am very happy to say that, in contrast to pre-2015 cuts, the Auditor General's budget was increased in 2018.

That increase made it possible to hire 38 new employees. We are collaborating with the Auditor General and are in constant contact with her.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, will the government give the Auditor General the money she asked for, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I want to mention that the budget went up by $8.3 million in 2018 compared—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. The hon. member for Carleton.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, when the Conservatives were in power, the Office of the Auditor General conducted 28 audits per year, compared to 14 now. Government spending has doubled, yet the number of audits has dropped by half.

Here is a simple question dealing with the present, not the past. Will the government give the Auditor General the funding she asked for, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I have great respect for my colleague, and even a bit of fondness.

I must tell him that, on this too, he needs to pick a lane. Does he support increasing the budget as we did, or does he want to cut the budget, like he did before 2015?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, I thank the hon. minister for his fondness.

I appreciate him very much, but I would appreciate an answer to my question even more. If he is so fond of me and our caucus, can he tell us whether he will hand over the money the Auditor General is asking for?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, to love someone completely, one must understand them completely.

Unfortunately, I am having a hard time understanding my colleague. I do not know if he is in favour of an increase like we did in 2018 or in favour of a cut like he did before 2015.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, the government is in favour of increasing the number of audits of small and medium-sized businesses, but not of a government that is spending this year like never before in the history of Canada.

Why does the government accept major audits of our small businesses that create jobs, but not audits of Liberal spending?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, another person for whom I have a great deal of esteem and affection is the Auditor General.

She is doing amazingly solid work, especially in the difficult conditions of the COVID-19 pandemic. If the hon. member for Carleton had listened to her comments over the past few days, he would know that she is practically in love with the Canadian government because we listen to her and we are there to collaborate with her so that she and her office can work in service of Canadians.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, he claims he loves the Auditor General, but it seems to me they are afraid of this important person, because they are denying her that money.

One last time, will the Auditor General get that money, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, unfortunately, there is so much more I could add about the important work of the Auditor General. I guess I will have to do that some other time.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Independent, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Chair, I appreciate being able to participate in the debate on Bill C-9. All the questions specifically on Bill C-9 that I was going to ask have already been asked. Therefore, I will address a number of issues that I raised in the House before and ask questions of the Minister of Finance. The first is on GDP. The other is on first nations finance.

GDP per capita has historically been used to make assumptions about the standard of living within a nation, the assumption being that the higher the per capita amount, the better the standards are. However, GDP has mixed results when trying to measure the social well-being of a population. As an economic tool, it only makes assumptions about the basic standards of living, which can be different across the socio-economic spectre of the nation. Moreover, better standards of living do not necessarily equate to increased social well-being, with the latter affected by a range of factors: mental well-being, cultural resilience, environmental health.

Does the Minister of Finance agree that using a different planning tool than GDP could help us develop budgets and policy that aim to increase the social well-being of all Canadians and not just the economic bottom line? I would be very interested in the minister's thoughts in this regard.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, it is something that I think about a lot and we are doing some important work on this. In fact my colleague, the Associate Minister of Finance, is very focused on this and is doing some really important work exploring precisely that issue and exploring precisely whether there are some other metrics that we can and should be looking at.

As I know the member for Vancouver Granville is also aware, countries like New Zealand have been very effective in bringing some of this thinking into their own economic policies. If we look at how effectively New Zealand has fought the coronavirus, we need to appreciate there is a lot we can learn from them.

Finally, and I think the member for Vancouver Granville was going in this direction, the coronavirus has revealed in a very bleak way how we all pay a price if we leave the most vulnerable among us without resources. That is yet another reason why, in our plan for a recovery, we need to be thinking a lot about how we support the most vulnerable—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Vancouver Granville.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Independent, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Chair, as part of building back better, I am sure the minister will agree that recognition of indigenous self-governments and their empowerment to take back control of their own affairs is important, not only to reconciliation but central to our economic strength.

What the minister might not be aware of is that Finance Canada plays a gatekeeper role in fiscal policy that is in fact impeding the pace of indigenous groups moving out from under the Indian Act. There are more than 100 negotiating tables in Canada where tax policy is one of the biggest issues impacting negotiations.

For one specific example, and there are many, why is it Finance Canada's position that self-governing first nations should not collect property tax under the First Nations Fiscal Management Act?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I would like to thank the member for Vancouver Granville for another really thoughtful question.

I would like to say that another lesson of COVID has been how effective indigenous communities can be when they have the tools and authority to look after their own well-being. We have seen indigenous communities across the country take really tough decisions about protecting their health and well-being on reserve, and those decisions have really paid off.

I agree with the member opposite that we need to really speed up our work on reconciliation and our work on being sure that indigenous communities have the tools they need to control their own fate. That is the answer.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Independent, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Chair, could the minister tell us why it is Finance Canada's position that self-governing first nations are not able to collect property tax under the First Nations Fiscal Management Act?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we do need to keep working on reconciliation and working on ensuring indigenous communities have the tools they need.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Madam Chair, I think we all recognize that Canada has experienced severe economic shocks periodically over the last century. However, what is notable about the present one is that this was caused by a health crisis. It has not only shown us how important it is to have a strong public health care system, but it has exposed, for all to see, the cracks, the deep crevasses that exist in our public health care system.

I am going to be addressing my questions to health care. The federal government has earmarked $4.28 billion to support provinces and territories with the costs of increasing their capacity to conduct testing, perform contact tracing and share public health data. How much of that funding has been spent to date?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, the member opposite is absolutely right that a core direction for our government has been the understanding that health care is delivered by provinces and territories. We knew that we needed to support provinces and territories with really unprecedented levels of financial support. The safe restart has provided, as the member knows very well, $19 billion to provinces and territories, and then an additional $2 billion for the safe return to school. That came after half a billion dollars of—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Madam Chair, the question was about testing. All the experts tell us that in order to get control of transmission, we must have vigorous testing and contact tracing. How much of the $4.28 billion allocated for testing has been spent? I did not get an answer to that.

I am going to move on. The minister has talked about the importance of social determinants of health. According to the Public Health Agency of Canada's recent report on an equity-based approach to COVID-19, “COVID-19 has underscored the inequities in health that are shaped by these [social] determinants [of health], highlighted how these inequities may be exacerbated in the context of a pandemic, and shown how they can aggravate and prolong the spread of disease, making the pandemic worse.”

Would the government and minister support the implementation of a guaranteed livable income to address the inequities shaped by the social determinants of health?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I absolutely share the member opposite's analysis. I agree with him about the social determinants of health. We are just seeing very starkly both that the coronavirus is ruthlessly targeting the most vulnerable among us and also that we really are our brother's keeper. We are all paying the price for that.

What do we need to do about it? The first step is to have support measures in place now to help all Canadians get through it. The EI and the new CRB measures we voted for on September 30 are playing an important role there. I also think the rapid housing initiative referred to earlier tonight is so important. If part of our fight against coronavirus can be real progress on ending homelessness in Canada, that will be both a necessary and major accomplishment.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Madam Chair, the question was on whether the government supports a guaranteed livable income, and once again, I note that there is no answer to that question.

I want to move to long-term care. We know that 80% of the deaths to COVID-19 in this country happened in long-term care homes, giving Canada the worst record of any OECD country. Given that Canada is currently in the grips of the second wave and outbreaks in long-term care facilities have been rising in recent weeks, can the minister confirm when the national standards mentioned in the recent throne speech will be brought into force? Will the national standards be tied to new federal funding to meet those standards for long-term care in the provinces?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, that is another great question. I share the member's preoccupation with long-term care. I think this is a national tragedy and a national shame. We have to do better. I do not minimize how hard it is to do this.

I want to say to our partners in the provinces and territories that we are there to work with them on it. Significant support has already been provided in the safe restart agreement. We are—

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, my riding is home to the municipality of Mont-Saint-Grégoire, which has the highest concentration of sugar shacks per square foot. They are worried because they have slipped through every hole in every safety net so far.

The latest announcement has done nothing to ease their worries because, to be eligible for fixed costs, they have to compare one year's revenue to the previous year's revenue. As it happens, sugar shacks make their money in March and April only. Technically, that means they would be eligible for the program next March and April only. Moreover, the program does not cover other costs, such as supplies and food, which they have to pay for several months before a season that might not even happen.

What can the minister say to reassure them?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, I want to thank my colleague for her question.

Obviously, we have a strategy for all regions and all sectors. That is why we invested $1.5 billion in regional development. I believe that investment will help businesses, especially the ones she mentioned.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, help with rent and fixed costs is great, but for some businesses, rent is not their biggest fixed cost. For instance, my riding is home to Rodéo Sainte-Brigide, which took out a huge loan for a new stadium. This business does not have to pay rent, but it does have to pay back an infrastructure loan. These kinds of businesses are also falling through the cracks.

Once again, what can the government say to them to reassure them?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I thank the member for her question.

I want to say two things. First, I hope the member will agree with me that the rent relief is very important and that we must pass it, because many businesses in Quebec need it.

Second, I agree—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Saint-Jean.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, several specific sectors did not get assistance tailored to their reality.

This was the case for many seasonal businesses in my riding, such as summer camps. Many of these businesses, such as the Centre de plein air l'Estacade, a non-profit in Saint-Paul-de-l'Île-aux-Noix, are struggling.

Would the minister agree to make assistance for fixed costs and rent retroactive, at the very least for seasonal businesses?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I thank the member for her question.

As I have already explained in response to the Bloc's other questions, our approach with the rent relief is to focus on the future, not the past. However, I agree with the member that seasonal businesses are unique, and I agree that we need to find a solution.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I hope that the government will think of the future of these businesses and not their past.

Hotel owners in my riding contacted us in September because the application criteria for the wage subsidy were not reasonably predictable. In order to be eligible, owners needed to have paid employees' wages, which means that these employees would have had to have worked.

Come December 19, will these businesses get the criteria for the next period, or will they still hesitate to put their employees to work because they do not know whether they will be able to get reimbursed through the wage subsidy?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we tried to strike a balance with the Canada emergency wage subsidy and the Canada emergency rent subsidy.

We gave our businesses plenty of certainty. We told them that the help would be there until June 2021 and that it would remain at its current level until December 19.

At the same time, we need to be flexible. We do not know how the economy will be doing or what the public health situation will be. We therefore found—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Saint-Jean has 30 seconds.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, there are businesses that were unable to benefit from the assistance because it was ill-conceived.

I have a company that sublets from the tenant of an owner. That company was unable to access the assistance because the tenant was in a good financial position.

Could the government consider retroactive assistance for people who fell through the cracks?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, once again, we are thinking of the future, not the past.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, when the Liberals prorogued Parliament, they said they were going to bring forward a new plan to support Canadians, but since then all we have seen is more of the same.

As we have learned how to better deal with the pandemic, and as the public health crisis ends and these programs eventually expire, we must allow our economy to get back on track, or keep on going back, if I can use the Minister of Finance's terms. However, we have not seen any plan except for the status quo.

I wonder if the Minister of Finance can tell us what the plan is to get this economy off of life support.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I would like to start with where Canadians are now. I think it is so important for us to appreciate that we are in a second wave of the coronavirus. This is really serious.

Canada is in a lucky position because the virus has hit us later than many other countries, so we can look at their experience. If we look at what is happening with Europe, the situation is really disquieting.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, I would like to know if the economic plan, or lack thereof, includes rapid testing.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I just want to emphasize that the second wave is here. It is hitting countries much like ours with a vengeance—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, given that many jurisdictions, including the province of Ontario, have brought forward budgets this year, can the minister tell us when we can expect to see a budget from the government?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, as I said earlier this evening, I urge colleagues to have patience. We committed in the Speech from the Throne to a fall economic—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, if the government will not bring forward a budget by 2021, could the minister please explain why?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, as I said, the next important economic moment is going to be our fall fiscal update. I am glad so many members are looking forward to it.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, I would like to expand on a letter I actually sent to the Minister of Finance before she became the Minister of Finance earlier this summer. It was an inquiry based on some questions from my constituents.

Our party supported many of the emergency benefits. We supported the border closure measures. We actually called for them long before the government took action, but the lack of certainty from the government and the constant moving of timelines really put a lot of business owners in a difficult position. In my letter I asked if there were any metrics that the government was using to determine when it may move forward from some of these measures, and if it is able to share them.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, let me start with the premise of the question, which I think is not quite right. With this legislation, which we are all talking about tonight and voting on tomorrow, we are offering certainty to our businesses. We are saying these essential programs will be in place until the summer. That is really important, and I am glad we all support that.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, many business owners have been speaking out about many different problems with various COVID-19 supports throughout the summer, whether they are onerous criteria, inflexible timelines or a lack of clarity. I think this is especially true for many tourism and seasonal operations in my riding and across northern Ontario.

I would like to know if the government has been consulting with these businesses to ensure the amended programs are going to work as they are intended to.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, we recognize that we need to have sectoral strategies and sectoral supports going forward. That is why, through the industry strategy council, we are engaging with different sectors to better understand their unique challenges and pain points, so we can put forward tailored measures to support them, particularly the tourist sector, which has been hard hit.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, our party brought forward many different suggestions very early on in the course of this pandemic. Why did it take the government so long to amend many of these programs?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I am grateful for all the great ideas we hear in this House, and I am really glad we are going to support this important legislation.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, the first question I have for the Minister of Finance is this: How much is budgeted to pay for the rent relief program?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I am going to be giving specific updates in my fall economic—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, I think it was $2.3 billion until December 31. What percentage of that is for municipal taxes to be paid?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we have a broad understanding of the relevant expenses that can qualify for the rent subsidy.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, what percentage is for mortgages to be paid to the banks?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, as I said, our objective in creating this program has been to reach a broad range of businesses—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, has the minister thought about the unintended consequences of the 25% bump-up if a municipality goes into lockdown?

For instance, my municipality of Calgary is getting 90% of municipal taxes and the utility fees for 90% of the utility it owns, so it might be a motivation to actually cut down our economy when we do not necessarily need to. Can the minister respond to that?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I have thought really carefully about the intended consequences of the lockdown support. What I believe this support will do is empower public health officers, mayors and premiers to do the right thing for health because that is going to be the right thing for the economy.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, the balance sheet of the Bank of Canada has increased by $450 billion since the pandemic started. Of that, $175 billion is in the repo market. That means it has paid the banks. Can the minister tell us why so much?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, the members opposite seem to be confusing the job of the finance minister with the job of the Governor of the Bank of Canada. I understand the distinction, and I honour it.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

The answer, Madam Chair, is to keep interest rates low. Interest rates go down, outstanding bond prices go up. It is kind of a rule, but about 100% correlation: we will put it that way.

With $250 billion in the secondary market, how many billions of Canadian dollars has the Bank of Canada wasted and overpaid to institutions to redeem off-the-run securities in the financial markets?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Again, Madam Chair, the members opposite seem oddly keen on undermining the independence and the authority of the Bank of Canada, and I can think of nothing that is more pernicious and more dangerous in this difficult time. Our government believes in the independence of our Bank of Canada. We know how important that is to our economy.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, who is responsible for the overpayments of the government's Crown corporation called the Bank of Canada?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, the Conservatives may, for partisan reasons that I actually do not entirely fathom, seek to attack the Bank of Canada—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

It is billions, Madam Chair, and the Canadian taxpayers are responsible for it, so somebody in the House should be responsible for it. However, with a few billion here and 10 billion there, pretty soon I know we are going to be talking about real money. That will need to be repaid by Canadian taxpayers.

Financial analysts are reporting that with the amount of on-the-run buying of Canadian bonds in the marketplace, by the end of this year, there will be no external demand for Canadian securities at all. At that point in time, can the minister tell us what she thinks will happen to interest rates?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Again, Madam Chair, external demand for Canadian securities is in fact very strong because of our strong economic performance and because of our strong fiscal record. However, I want to repeat, the Conservatives cannot have their cake and eat it too. Either they believe in supporting Canadians and Canadian businesses or they do not.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Chair, with 44% of the Bank of Canada's buying being in the on-the-run marketplace, there is no demand for new Canadian securities out there, and it escalates every month.

Who is going to be paying this accelerating interest?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Again, Madam Chair, I say to the Conservatives to pick a lane: They are for austerity or they want to support Canadians. We know what we believe in.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Chair, Bill C-9 is pretty late in coming, but it fixes some of the problems the Bloc Québécois identified back at the start of the pandemic. We will definitely support this bill, and we hope it will be passed in a timely manner. The Bloc wants to support our workers, our entrepreneurs and our communities.

Does the government agree that the bill must help those who really need help, those whose needs are so great that the pandemic could threaten their existence?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Madam Chair, I am very happy to hear my Bloc Québécois colleague. We are from the same province, and those of us on this side of the House also recognize the major issues and challenges that our businesses, especially our small businesses, are facing. That is why we are so happy we can count on the Bloc's support for this bill.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Chair, would the government also agree that a business or applicant should not receive assistance twice for the same need? For instance, a restaurant or bed and breakfast could not receive both the Canada emergency wage subsidy and the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance for the same premises.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I think we all agree that government assistance should be targeted at those who need it most, in a way that respects the integrity of the use of public funds.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Chair, I am so happy to hear the government say that assistance should go to those who really need it, to people whose very existence is in danger, and that people cannot receive double payments of government assistance.

Does the government believe that political parties like the Liberal Party of Canada, the Conservative Party of Canada and the New Democratic Party, which have accumulated a combined total of $25 million in their coffers over the last six months, which they will use to finance the next election campaign, are as much at risk from the pandemic as SMEs on the North Shore?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, if she had the time, my colleague might have also added that the assistance, as was the case in the past few months, was provided efficiently, quickly and without discrimination as to the type of work people do or the regions where people live.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Chair, again, the recipient should need the money. It is not right to double dip.

Does the government agree that the Liberal Party, which received $1.2 million from the emergency wage subsidy that it will use it for the next election and be reimbursed for by the Chief Electoral Officer, essentially got twice the assistance when it did not need any?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, this gives me the opportunity to thank my colleague for her question and point out that the emergency wage subsidy has helped close to four million workers over the past few months. That is four million workers who would have lost both their job and their ability to put food on the table.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Chair, in light of these inconsistent answers, I would like the government to be honest enough to say that it applies for double the assistance when it does not need any, while people back home on the North Shore and elsewhere in Quebec are not getting anything during this pandemic.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I am somewhat concerned when the member says that no one in her riding has received government assistance. If that is the case, they really have to take action in that riding because, in Canada, almost nine million workers, including tens of thousands—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Manicouagan.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Speaker, the government misunderstood the question. Some have received assistance, but there are some who need it more than the Liberal Party does.

To prevent wealthy political parties, like the Liberal Party of Canada, from receiving twice as much financial assistance, which they do not need, when at the same time companies whose survival depends on it are denied that assistance, does the government think that reinstating public funding for political parties would be the solution?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I did not have time to finish my answer. I was going to say that 8.8 million workers have received the CERB. I imagine that there are tens of thousands in the member's riding. If that is not the case, if she does not have that kind of information, she has the right to ask for it. We will do everything we can to obtain it.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Chair, I would like an answer regarding public funding for political parties. That is the question I was asking. As I said, rich parties are getting money they do not need, and they are double dipping because they will get reimbursed. They will use this money for an election campaign and not for their current needs, because they are not in danger, unlike businesses.

I would like to know if the minister sees this as a solution.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Madam Chair, I think the word “solution” is apt because in her riding, and in mine, it is a solution that addresses many challenges faced by businesses, small businesses in particular, whose rent and wages—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Vancouver East.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, Vancouver East small businesses cannot understand why the Liberals require the landlord to apply for the first commercial rent subsidy program in order to qualify. With the second program, the minister will only allow small businesses that are still struggling to survive the pandemic to apply retroactively to September 27, not April 1. If the idea is to help small businesses survive through the second wave into the future, small businesses will not be able to sustain themselves if the new commercial rent subsidy program is not backdated to April. Surely the minister realizes they have to carry the debt from the first wave forward. The past is part of their future. What will it take for the minister to make the program retroactive to April?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, I want to thank the hon. member for her advocacy and her work. As the finance minister said earlier, what is really important here is getting this legislation through, helping businesses today and helping them going forward so that we can help them bridge to better times beyond COVID-19 and help them with these very important fixed costs that they have to pay.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, repeating the same lines does not answer the question.

My constituent is a member of the Air Line Pilots Association. In an effort to support the company, he and his colleagues from WestJet have sacrificed themselves by taking a 50% cut in compensation for 12 months straight. As many as 180 to 200 pilots have taken a 70% reduction. Will the government come in with an airline recovery package that ensures public equity, job protection and consumer protection?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I do want to say how much I admire and respect the people who are keeping our planes flying. They are doing a terrific job in circumstances that are really challenging and I know how dedicated they are. We are looking now carefully at the particular circumstances the airlines face—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Vancouver East.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, among the large companies that apply to LEEFF, how many companies receive financial support and of those that receive financial support, how many use the emergency wage subsidy?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, so far two companies have received support through LEEFF. This is a very rigorous process that we go through—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, I have written to the minister about the PNE. If it cannot get access to the wage subsidy program, that may spell the end of this 110-year-old institution that provides employment to over 4,200 Canadians annually.

Will the Liberals help the PNE survive the pandemic?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, let us just remember that what we are talking about tonight is very comprehensive support that is going to be in place until the summer. I do not think there is any country in the world—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, it is not enough. Statistics from the Tourism Industry Association of Canada state that only 12% of the tourism applicants to the business credit availability program were approved and 43% were outright denied.

The tourism and hospitality sector desperately need liquidity to get through the winter. Will the Liberals make adjustments to the program so they can access this critical program?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, with respect to the programs we have in place, BCAP is a great initiative. Also, I want to underscore the fact that we have LEEFF, which was highlighted before. Above and beyond that, if companies have faced challenges, we have put forward monies through the regional development agencies, $1.5 billion, to assist these enterprises and organizations across the country.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, again, will the Liberals make adjustments to the program so they can access this critical program?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Madam Chair, we have demonstrated not only scale and speed, but also flexibility in the way we design programs. We look forward to working with members opposite going forward.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, I would like to go back to the Minister of Finance about the PNE. Will the Liberals help the PNE survive the pandemic?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

As I said, Madam Chair, the programs that we have put in place are extensive. We, together here in the House, are giving businesses and organizations across the country real certainty. We know that they do not cover—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, does the finance minister have a short-term plan for the economy?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, yes, we do have a plan and big part of the plan is the work we are doing here tonight.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, does the minister have a medium-term plan for the economy?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I sure do, Madam Chair. It is called one million jobs.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, does the minister have a long-term plan for the economy?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, yes I do. It is called a Canada that is more innovative, more—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, does the finance minister agree with the agriculture minister that farmers should have to drain their personal savings before the government will provide assistance to them?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I know that the agriculture minister supports our farmers heart and soul, and so do I.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, does the finance minister know how much money the average farmer pays in carbon tax?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I am actually very personally aware of the hard work our farmers do. I am really—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, based on Statistics Canada information, the average Canadian farm, by size, is 1,668 acres. APAS calculates the carbon tax at $2.38 an acre for 2020, which costs farmers just shy of $4,000. It is going up to $3.80 an acre in 2022, bringing the total to over $6,300.

Does the minister think it is okay to keep raising the carbon tax on the producers responsible for our food supply chain?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, first of all, we all understand we have a collective responsibility to reduce our carbon footprint, but we also acknowledge the unique challenges faced by farmers.

That is why we put forward $5 billion in lending capacity for Farm Credit Canada. It is why we put forward $125 million through AgriRecovery, including measures to help cattle and pork sectors, $50 million to help with the mandatory isolation period for temporary foreign workers, the launch of the $77.5-million emergency—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, how much will the buyback of firearms that the government never previously owned cost taxpayers at fair market value?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, we agree about a lot in the House. We are going to vote together to support Canadian businesses. However, I think we disagree on firearms and I am very glad to be on this—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, how much did the implementation of the order in council cost taxpayers?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I am not sure which order in council the member is speaking about, but if he is talking about firearms, we are proud of our government's position. We—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, does the minister think the reason no one wants to bid on the tender for the buyback is because the price tag will be way higher than the government anticipates?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, what I think is there is a clear line between us and the Conservatives. We believe military-style assault weapons have no place in the hands of Canadians.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, did the government consult with store owners who sell firearms on what the cost and the impact to their personal business would be before it implemented the order in council?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, as I said, on this point we differ, and I am proud to be on our side. We need to get these weapons out of our country.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, does the finance minister believe that the subsidies, like the wage subsidy and the rent subsidy, maybe along with other programs, will be enough to get the Canadian energy sector back to pre-COVID employment levels?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, these subsidies are about helping our businesses get through the fight against COVID. They are about helping businesses across the economy and across—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

We can have a very brief question from the hon. member.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Chair, is the minister concerned that some organizations opposed to certain industries might receive these funds while they are working against other Canadian jobs?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Madam Chair, we have supported, through the wage subsidy, more than 60,000 resource workers. This is a testament to the diversity of our sectors, and more importantly, the support for this key sector.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Chair, as has been stated by other colleagues in the House, I am glad to see the bill come forward to implement long-overdue changes to these COVID-related relief programs. As the saying goes, it is never too late to do the right thing.

In this case, I worry that the very long time it has taken the government to do the right thing is in fact too late for thousands of small businesses across our country and in my riding. While the wage subsidy has been helpful, for many owner-operator businesses the real problem has been ongoing fixed costs. Many of them have received no help thus far with their rent, either because their landlord would not participate or, in the case of several businesses in Maple Ridge, because their landlord could not participate.

Properties owned by municipal agencies were excluded from CECRA. At those daily 4:30 p.m. calls organized by the health ministry, we all remember those, I asked for the municipal exclusion to be removed. Officials said that they would look into it. My local mayors said they were open to it, if it were not for the exclusions.

Over 700 people in my riding signed a petition to remove the exclusions. It was initiated by Sally and James with Sushi Ebenezer and Temptations Salon, owned by Lisa. Everyone was on board except for the government.

Why have these exclusions remained for so long? After nearly eight months of pleading from tenants, residents and me, will the minister confirm that this completely unjust exclusion is removed in the new program?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, let me start by thanking the member opposite for his truly heartfelt question, a question that, to me, reflects real knowledge of his community and real advocacy for his community. I really respect that and I am grateful for the input.

In terms of the measures that we are going to be voting on tomorrow, together we can all be really proud that once we have passed this legislation, Canada will have a set of measures that are mutually reinforcing, that will be in place until the summer, that support businesses and support Canadians, and that I think are second to none anywhere in the world.

We will have done our job helping Canadians to get through. That is what we need—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Chair, what I am hearing is more waffling, not an answer to the question I asked.

I look forward to finally seeing some of those tenant applications coming back approved after eight months of rejections. That is the issue with these programs and has been since day one. They get rushed through this place, and within days, if not hours, inadequacies are quickly pointed out.

I wonder if the minister could advise what the most likely complaints are that I can expect to hear from my struggling local business about this program?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, I want to share some comments from a couple of businesses.

Aphrodite's café, says, “We are not completely out of the woods yet, but without these programs like rent support, I would have had to close my doors almost immediately.”

Eby Manor milk states, “It is important that we are able to hire staff. We have hired a number of part-time staff and it is because of the Canada emergency wage subsidy.”

This legislation is going to help businesses like this. I am really glad we are getting support so we can pass the legislation.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Chair, while we are on the topic of reading emails and communication, I will read one myself.

This is from a local business that says, “Here at PMP, we are fortunate to be working, but like everyone else, struggling to stay COVID-free in our offices, our shops and our sites. We just got informed yesterday that PMP is subject to a CRA audit in the middle of a pandemic. We find this highly inappropriate even though we recognize the need for CRA to do its job. Our thinking is simply that now is not the time. As you know, we employ a ton of people and are working hard to keep everyone employed, so going through an audit in the middle of a pandemic is very unsettling.”

Why are the Liberals so opposed to the motion we passed, with the support of the opposition parties, for businesses like Pitt Meadows Plumbing?

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

That was not quite a short question. I will get the minister to respond very briefly because there is no time left.

The hon. minister.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Madam Chair, our government is acting quickly and decisively to help Canadian workers and the organizations that they work for.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Madam Chair, let me start by expressing my appreciation to the Liberal government's ministers for finally staying up late in debating Bill C-9 to help Canadians. Unfortunately, throughout this ongoing pandemic, Canadians have been done a grave disservice by the federal government: a government that openly claims to be doing everything possible to help Canadians except, when this is closely examined, it is far from the truth.

Instead of effective help, what the people have heard are grandiose aspirations and empty promises. Instead of efficient support, the people have received confused and poorly implemented programs, like the original rental assistance and the initial proposal for the emergency wage subsidy. Instead of genuine assistance for all, the Liberals wanted an unprecedented power grab. Even with the limited oversight Parliament had been constrained to, WE, in upper case, found the true purposes and goals of that opportunity the Liberals saw.

Why is doing it right and optimally so important? Why is focusing on the future not enough to let us forget about the untrustworthy past? It is because, as in life, there is only one chance to do it right.

Many businesses in my riding of Steveston—Richmond East had no choice but to permanently close because of ill-timed or poorly implemented flawed policies. There is no future for them and little for their employees. When both CECRA and CEWS were pushed through the House of Commons, opposition parliamentarians stepped forward and proposed corrections and changes. Some of these were adopted, but so many others fell on deaf ears. We called upon the government to fix the rental assistance in April. That was almost seven months ago, and it has taken until now to see change: over a month after the previous and flawed program expired.

Members can imagine if this meeting we are having now took place seven months ago. The Conservatives have been advocating for incentives to help Canadians get back to work for equally as long, and we have brought solutions to the table to help small businesses, which are the backbone of our economy. Now, we once again find ourselves in the same situation, where the government is announcing programming and telling Canadians it will help, and the opposition parties are requesting more measures to effectively help Canadians and to efficiently assist our small businesses.

Canadians have received far fewer benefits than the hundreds of billions of dollars in extra debt the government has burdened on their, and future generations', backs. The finance minister earlier asked Her Majesty's opposition to consider which lane we are in. I can inform her that the government is not in the lane that will deliver the most effective and efficient results that our country deserves. In addition to traffic navigation, tonight the finance minister also wanted to teach us lessons in finance and philosophy.

Let me be clear. As I used to work in the software engineering business, I know that this is not a zero-and-one world: one can definitely chew gum while walking. Allow me to enlighten the hon. minister: What Canadians rightfully demand is assistance without a complete disregard and sell-off of their and their kid's futures. In other words, they expect smart, prudent and respectful use of their precious and very limited resources, and Her Majesty's loyal opposition wholeheartedly agrees and believes.

Will the government explain why it denied Canadian small businesses, entrepreneurs and workers the unanimous support of the Conservative motion to be flexible about increased CRA audits?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of Small Business]

Madam Chair, since the hon. member started talking about working late, I am really looking forward after this debate to joining the virtual trade mission I have going to Korea in another room here. We are all here today because I think we would agree with the member that supporting small businesses across the country is exactly what we are all here to do.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Chair, has the government done a cost-benefit analysis on how having rapid testing would act as an economic tool? For example, could rapid testing affect how workers who have time off because of being in contact with somebody would be able to go back to work sooner? Would it have an impact on the confidence of consumers in the retail and hospitality sectors? Would it have an impact potentially on businesses like the ones in northern Saskatchewan that rely solely on foreign tourism, like the outfitters, where revenues are near zero and the supports are not working for them? Would rapid testing change their outlook?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Minister of Innovation]

Madam Chair, I just want to state some very important facts. Federal staff are making over 1,000 contact tracing calls daily in Ontario, and four federal labs are setting up and running support initiatives for provinces when it comes to lab-testing capacity with two more online shortly. What is really important to know is that since October 21, over 2.4 million rapid tests have been sent to provinces and territories and we think this is important when it comes to overall testing strategy.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Chair, Kevin Page, the former parliamentary budget officer and now president and CEO of the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy, when talking about the release of mandate letters, said, “I do not think the government has been sufficiently transparent with Parliament and Canadians on the spending for COVID-19 fiscal supports”.

Does this statement by the former PBO trouble the Minister of Finance in the least?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, we are here for four hours tonight, answering questions of members from the opposite side of the House and across the country. That is democracy in action, and what I am really proud of is at the end of all of this, tomorrow, I hope that all of us are going to support these measures that are so important for Canadian businesses.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Chair, Mr. Page added, “Reporting on fiscal supports during the 2020 pandemic will fall far short of the public quarterly reports we saw during the 2009-10 fiscal stimulus response to the global financial crisis (yet the fiscal supports are at least 10 times larger)” today.

Does the Minister of Finance agree that better reporting would improve the ability to measure the effectiveness of the current programs, as well as Parliament's accountability role?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, some verdicts are already coming in on how Canada is doing. I want to point to a TD report, which describes “The Tale of Two Recoveries: Canada Versus the U.S.” Here is what TD said, “Perhaps the old adage [that when the U.S. sneezes, Canada catches a cold] should be rephrased to say, 'When the U.S. sneezes, Canada builds antibodies'.”

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Chair, the current Parliamentary Budget Officer, Mr. Giroux, told The Hill Times last month that it has been much more difficult to get information out of the minister's office since Ms. Freeland assumed the role. Can the minister explain why the PBO would—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I would remind the member that he is not to use the names of members in the House.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. You are using up the time of the hon. member.

The hon. member for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Chair, in a report released earlier this week, Mr. Giroux and his team noted that the finance department had been providing a thorough public accounting every other week until August, but that practice ended when the Prime Minister prorogued Parliament.

In referring to many of the recent commitments, he said, “While the sum of these measures is significant, the amount of information that is publicly available to track this spending is lacking, thus making it more challenging for parliamentarians to perform their critical role in overseeing government spending and holding it to account”.

This lack of transparency is a matter of grave concern to the Canadian public. Will the Minister of Finance commit to restarting the biweekly updates?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, I would like to point the members here to another verdict on how Canada is doing in fighting the coronavirus.

The Economist this week has written a piece that calls Canada a “Northern light”. The Economist concludes that “among rich countries Canada has so far performed well” on both the economic and epidemiological fronts. That is the objective view of how we are performing.

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

It being 11:28 p.m., pursuant to order made on Wednesday, November 4, the committee will rise and I will leave the Chair.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Carol Hughes]

Pursuant to the order made on Wednesday, November 4, Bill C-9, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (Canada Emergency Rent Subsidy and Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy) is deemed reported to the House without amendment.

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

(Bill reported)

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Carol Hughes]

Accordingly, pursuant to order made on Wednesday, November 4, the House stands adjourned until Friday, November 6, at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 11:29 p.m.)