Bill C-41

An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment amends the Criminal Code in order to create a regime under which the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness may authorize an eligible person to carry out, in a geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist group and for certain purposes, activities that otherwise would be prohibited under paragraph 83.03(b) of that Act (which becomes subsection 83.03(2)). It also makes consequential amendments to other Acts.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up with the officials on Bill C-41. I know it's a Public Safety or Justice lead, and not you guys directly, but I'm hoping you're part of the process. Obviously, you deal with international development organizations and you'll be providing advice on the implementation of aspects of this. It's working its way to the justice committee. There are a lot of concerns about how it works.

I wonder whether you could tell us in which parts of the world, right now, development organizations need to make applications, other than Afghanistan? There has been a lot of discussion about Afghanistan, but the bill would apply in other places. Where would you advise international development organizations they need to make an application, other than Afghanistan?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Maybe the Africa strategy was in an email somewhere.

Minister, I think we're having some challenges around seeing results, to be blunt about it. The Auditor General says you're not measuring results when it comes to improving the lives of women and girls. Bill C-41 is deeply flawed. The budget reverses various aid commitments. We have the whole issue of emails being checked during a crisis. That's beyond many of the other issues we've had at the Department of Defence.

I think the challenge from this committee to you is that we want to see results. We want to see outcomes. We don't just want to see good intentions. We want to see positive results.

I want to zero in first on a follow-up to my colleague's questions on the Auditor General. It's not clear to me if you fully accept and agree with the conclusions of the Auditor General in what was a very damning report. I want to hear from you, the minister: Do you accept and fully agree with the conclusions of the Auditor General?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

For Bill C-41, this is something we knew we needed to change. The legislation previously in place did make that a challenge. We had to work with our colleagues to make sure we had the right balance. I actually commend the committee for its work on this. That's what committee work is for, to make the legislation better. I look forward to the results on that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Let's move to Bill C-41 now.

I'm going to run out of time. I'm sorry, sir.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Okay, but you asked multiple questions before, and I was trying to answer those. I can move to Bill C-41 if you like.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But I was asking about the total amount and that percentage of ODA. Of course, we know that has been reduced by 15%.

The question I would like you to answer right now, if you don't mind, is on Bill C-41.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

No, your baseline budget has to incorporate all of the things that happen in the world. That's what international development is. This is an example of how you're not meeting the needs of the sector. You're not meeting the needs of people around the world.

Bill C-41 is another perfect example, Minister. You were responsible for making sure that Public Safety and Justice understood how humanitarian action actually occurs. In fact, what happened with Bill C-41 is that we weaponized, we criminalized, international development and humanitarian aid.

Everyone in the sector asked for a humanitarian carve-out. They didn't get that. When I listened to the experts from Public Safety and from Finance, it was almost as though they had never even heard about what humanitarian aid was. This was deeply flawed legislation.

What are you going to do to fix that?

[Stephen Salewicz]

Canadian NGOs are challenged because of Bill C-41 right now. They're challenged because of the counterterrorism law, which we've discussed already.

Maybe my colleague would like to go down that road.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I've been working on this for a year and a half, and I want to clarify something: Bill C‑41 does not provide an exemption, currently. NGOs have to apply, and the burden of proof is on them to convince the government that they are not funding terrorism. That has to be very clear.

[Stephen Salewicz]

Just to be clear, there's interference at the local level. Aid is coming in. Indeed, last year, with Canada's assistance, the broader donor community provided food aid to 26 million people. Food aid is coming in. Broader assistance is happening.

There is a challenging operating context at the local level, and our partners deal with that on a regular basis, but they are successful in responding. Where Bill C-41—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I find your response very interesting. It seems like right now, no help is coming into the country.

Can you give us an idea of how Bill C‑41, by granting an exemption, is going to improve the situation you just described, where the Taliban are blocking humanitarian aid? It's not because we're not trying to send it, it's because it is being blocked, or we've stopped sending it so it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Good evening.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I should point out at the outset that I am not a permanent member of the committee. I apologize if I am asking questions that have already been asked.

I would like to talk a little bit about Bill C‑41 and the solution it seeks to provide to a very difficult situation. Like other members of Parliament, I have received a great deal of correspondence over the past year or more from people who are concerned about the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. Many people have written to me asking that an exemption be created to allow aid to get to those in need in Afghanistan.

To begin, can you give us an example or an overview of the challenges there currently are on the ground with respect to the delivery of humanitarian aid in Afghanistan? Could you give us a picture of the situation and the challenges that are being faced in helping people in need in Afghanistan?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Your department is still responsible for providing emergency humanitarian assistance in Afghanistan. Currently, it has to do so through international organizations, as it is still difficult for Canadian NGOs, as Bill C‑41 has still not passed.

So you have goals. That's what you just told us.

Do you have a mechanism to evaluate whether you are meeting those goals? How do you know whether or not those goals are being met?

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Minister, I've heard that some UN organizations are considering making the continuation of their operations in Afghanistan conditional upon permitting women to be employed by them. As Bill C-41 allows the safety minister to impose conditions on the authorization to provide humanitarian assistance, is Canada considering making women staffing a condition of Canadian assistance? What are the pros and cons of requiring such a condition?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Simply for your information, Minister, I just came from the Standing Committee on Justice, which is studying Bill C‑41. It took you 15 months to draft an 82‑page bill, when everyone already agreed on the problem from the start. Now we hear that the Liberals might filibuster. When we say we need to move quickly, there may be a problem on your side of the House, but we'll get to that.

Your mission to Qatar disturbs me, Minister.

With respect to Canada's arms sale to Qatar, is it because you don't agree with that sale that you didn't put out that key message, which was in your briefing notes?