Bill C-41

An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment amends the Criminal Code in order to create a regime under which the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness may authorize an eligible person to carry out, in a geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist group and for certain purposes, activities that otherwise would be prohibited under paragraph 83.03(b) of that Act (which becomes subsection 83.03(2)). It also makes consequential amendments to other Acts.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Again, I want to take the opportunity to thank all of you for your work on this.

This legislation, Bill C-41, is very important. What it will allow is for agencies that want to work in Afghanistan to get through the approval process so they can conduct their work. It will allow us to reach more people.

Even with the challenges, we are focused on trying to deliver support as much as we can. We wanted to be able to not just focus on humanitarian work but also focus on education. That is still open, but at least with the legislative changes that we will eventually get done, we will have a greater capacity to do more.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I thank you very much for that. I will echo that when I go home. I sometimes talk to our Legion and some of our veterans.

I'm very proud of a number, Minister—30,000. There are a little over 30,000 Afghans who can now call Canada home. That's a reflection of the work done by our government, by people from everywhere, to bring these people here. I actually had the great pleasure of welcoming some of the Afghan newcomers here.

There's a particular thought...and I think I was part of it, which is Bill C-41. I would certainly like you to share a bit with our committee what this new bill being introduced means for you in your current role. How quickly should we pass it?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

All right, thank you.

We agree that getting humanitarian aid into Afghanistan is critical. I've just come from the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, which is working on Bill C‑41, that we've talked about several times, Minister, and which your government has been far too slow to introduce.

Today, the daily La Presse tells us that Prime Minister Trudeau is going to the Global Citizen NOW summit in New York, which some NGOs are complaining about, given that Canada's humanitarian aid budget was recently cut by 15%. Yet we send a Prime Minister to strut his stuff at this summit in New York alongside some influencers, comedians and musicians.

Don't you find it contradictory that we are sending the Prime Minister to strut his stuff at this summit while we are cutting the international aid budget?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 61 of the House Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference of March 27, 2023, the committee is meeting to continue its study of Bill C-41, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of June 23, 2022.

Yes, Mr. Genuis.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'd like to begin my remarks by restating the Government of Canada's commitment to the Afghan people as they face a dire humanitarian crisis with the reversal of many of the gains made over the last 20 years. Canada has supported and will continue to support the most vulnerable Afghans, particularly the many women and girls who have experienced the removal of their most basic rights and freedoms.

Our government is grateful for the work of the Special Committee on Afghanistan and its report and recommendations to provide further support to the Afghan people. We are taking a whole-of-government approach in responding to the committee's report. This has required and will continue to require a coordinated effort across several departments.

Since the Taliban took over as the de facto authority in Afghanistan, Canada has faced significant challenges in providing consular support to assist vulnerable Afghans who want to come to Canada, and in delivering much-needed international assistance. We are witnessing the rapid deterioration of human rights and freedoms in Afghanistan as a result of the Taliban's highly repressive and indefensible policies towards women and girls.

I'm here today to speak to the progress made on the recommendations from the Special Committee on Afghanistan in its final report. I want to highlight areas where Canada has focused its efforts since the tabling of the government response.

Humanitarian conditions in Afghanistan have significantly deteriorated since the Taliban's takeover in August 2021. We are now seeing over 28 million people—nearly two-thirds of the population—in need of urgent assistance. This is up from 18.4 million at the start of 2021. Afghans are suffering one of the world's worst humanitarian crises, with needs emerging across all sectors, resulting in nearly half the population experiencing acute food insecurity.

Canada has been steadfast in its continued support of the humanitarian needs of the most vulnerable Afghans, including women and girls. We have found ways to deliver assistance in this difficult environment through experienced international humanitarian organizations and ensuring that it reaches those in need.

In 2022, Canada provided over $143 million to support efforts in delivering much-needed emergency food and nutrition assistance, health services, emergency shelter, and protection services in Afghanistan and in neighbouring countries. As a nation, we continue to offer our support in 2023.

I just want to state that the Taliban's status as a terrorist group has imposed constraints on Canada's charities, non-governmental organizations and government officials wishing to deliver aid in Afghanistan, as any taxes, tariffs or fees paid to the Taliban risk contravening the Criminal Code's counterterrorism financing provisions.

In March, my colleague, Minister Mendicino, tabled Bill C-41, an amendment to the Criminal Code that would facilitate our humanitarian, human rights and safe-passage work in Afghanistan by providing an authorization regime that could shelter Canadian organizations providing needed activities from the risk of criminal liability. With this amendment, we aim to provide more flexibility to our partners to deliver on our humanitarian responsibilities while ensuring that Canada's counterterrorism measures remain strong and effective.

Increasingly, the Taliban is restricting the rights and freedoms of Afghan women and girls, including their freedom of movement and dress, as well as their ability to work in the profession of their choice or to receive an education. We are alarmed by the Taliban's decree of December 2022—which banned female NGO workers from providing assistance and in April was subsequently extended to women working for United Nations agencies—particularly in light of the humanitarian crisis, as well as by the outrageous ban on women attending university. The Government of Canada has repeatedly, at the highest level, strongly condemned the Taliban's attempt to erase girls and women from public life in Afghanistan.

As these restrictions increase, Canada's support for Afghan women and girls has not wavered. Canada continues to advocate strongly for the full realization of Afghan women's and girls' rights at every opportunity, including through outreach by our special representative for Afghanistan and our permanent missions at the United Nations in New York and in Geneva, as well as through our civil society partners and on social media.

Additionally, Canadian officials consult regularly with a broad range of Afghan women leaders and human rights defenders in order to better understand their needs and how we can best support them. The international community, including Canada, is working together in a strong, coordinated effort to fiercely advocate for the rights of Afghan women and girls, and to call on the Taliban to reverse the bans and protect the fundamental rights and freedoms of the Afghan people.

In conclusion, the Government of Canada is committed to doing all it can to address the recommendations made in the special committee's report. We remain committed to the people of Afghanistan and to calling out the Taliban for its unacceptable repression of the rights of women and girls.

Thank you for your time. I'm looking forward to the questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

There is a ruling. Bill C-41 amends the Criminal Code to create a regime under which the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness may authorize an eligible person to carry out, in a geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist group and for certain purposes, activities that otherwise would be prohibited.

The prohibited activities within the scope of the bill are set out in existing paragraph 83.03(b), which becomes new subsection 83.03(2), of the code and specifically concern the collection or provision of property or services for use by a terrorist group.

The amendment proposes to allow the minister to authorize an eligible person to carry out activities that would otherwise be prohibited under the other provisions of part II.1 of the Criminal Code in a geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist group.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 70, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.” In the opinion of the chair, allowing exceptions to prohibited activities under the whole of part II.1 of the Criminal Code is beyond the scope of the bill; therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

[Robert Brookfield]

The obligations, as in the existing law as we formulated in BillC-41, are in proposed subsections 83.03(1) and 83.03(2), for knowingly supporting terrorist purposes and knowingly supporting terrorist organizations. Proposed subsection 83.032(1) is the power given to the Minister of Public Safety to issue an authorization.

This amendment limits the power to issue that authorization. The existing law would remain and a potential liability, but the ability to apply under a situation that does not meet the requirement of substantial control would be removed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Mr. Genuis, I actually have to make a ruling first. I thought you were making comments.

The ruling is that Bill C-41 amends the Criminal Code to create a regime under which the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness may authorize an eligible person to carry out, in a geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist group and for certain purposes, certain activities that would otherwise be prohibited. The amendment proposes to allow a person to carry out such activities in a geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist group without authorization from the minister.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 770, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

In the opinion of the chair, the amendment proposes an exception to both proposed subsections 83.03(1) and 83.03(2) that would not require the minister’s authorization, which is contrary to the principle of the bill. Therefore, the amendment is inadmissible.

It's a non-debatable issue, unless you want to challenge the chair.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes. I believe they've all been moved.

Mr. Chair, NDP-3 is something that we have all heard from the testimony as being very needed to make this bill useful. This is the humanitarian carve-out that we had hoped the entire bill would be. I think all of the opposition parties have been asking for a very long time—for over 18 months now—to have this legislation in place. When the legislation was tabled and Bill C-41 was brought forward, that carve-out was not in this legislation.

This is an attempt. I think we've heard enough testimony from enough different groups that I have.... All parties want to find a solution to ensure that there is a humanitarian carve-out for organizations. We would be asking the committee to consider adding the following:

(4) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to a person who carries out any of the acts referred to in those subsections for the sole purpose of carrying out humanitarian assistance activities conducted under the auspices of impartial humanitarian organizations in accordance with international humanitarian law.”

It would also delete lines 15 to 19 on page 2.

[Robert Brookfield]

To clarify, the first part of the amendment doesn't just amend the ability to issue authorization. It also amends the crime itself. The crime itself would essentially be more limited, such that, whether in Canada or abroad, an individual who gives money to an organization that carries out terrorist activities would not be prohibited, as long as it's only giving it to the organization and not knowingly for a terrorist purpose. That's in proposed subsection 83.03(1) as the present Bill C‑41 will provide, and that stays in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Shall amendment NDP-1 carry?

(Amendment agreed to)

For NDP-2, I believe a new version was circulated earlier today with the reference number 12356266, which is the version the committee will now consider.

If NDP-2 is adopted, several instances of the words “terrorist group” in the bill would be changed to “listed entity”. Members may want to remember this when considering subsequent amendments that use either term to ensure consistency throughout Bill C-41.

Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 60 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to the order of reference of March 27, 2023, the committee is meeting to begin its study of Bill C-41, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and the members. I don't think there is anyone on Zoom. No, so we'll skip that. I think all of you are familiar with microphone issues and how to get your translation services.

On our agenda today, we'll be proceeding to the clause-by-clause study of Bill C-41. If time permits, we'll try to begin our study in camera of the draft report on extradition. If it isn't possible, we will continue doing that on Wednesday.

Before I begin the business of today, I want to wish Ms. Dhillon a happy birthday. It's her birthday today, so happy birthday, Ms. Dhillon.

[Martin Fischer]

If I can just.... I'm obviously not speaking on behalf of the Canadian Red Cross, but I think the conversation has evolved over the last few days to say that just Bill C-41 is insufficient. In my interpretation of the position from ICRC, if there were not room for an additional humanitarian carve-out and if Bill C-41 passes unamended, then that's not ideal. I think that's where consensus has emerged from all witnesses. I think that's fair.

[Martin Fischer]

I'll speak on World Vision's behalf.

The other consideration is that at least the three organizations that are sitting here, as well as many of the other organizations, operate in these large international federations or partnerships in which we have very strict guidelines around risk tolerance and around what Usama was talking about. Ultimately, yes, World Vision Canada makes a decision on whether or not the risk is acceptable to us, but there's also an international component in there that provides additional safeguards, and our partnership provides guidance as to whether a context is too tricky, too risky, for us to operate within it.

Again, different organizations will come to that conclusion at different levels, and there is no right threshold, whether it's 3%, 5%, 7% or 14%, at which you hit that determination.

I have two concluding remarks. First, we're driven by the humanitarian imperative, and the humanitarian imperative obliges us to take risks in order to deliver humanitarian assistance, but when we perceive that those risks affect our ability to provide assistance because of the legal parameters that we operate in within Canada, then we will have that kind of consideration.

The second piece—and we've said this at various stages—is that it's not just Bill C-41 that provides the regulatory framework for charities and humanitarian organizations in Canada to operate in those kinds of contexts. At the very top we have donor promise, as Usama said. We have to provide Canadians certainty that what they are giving us the funds for is actually what the funds are being used for, and then be very clear right down to reporting with the CRA and elsewhere, so it's not just Bill C-41. You have to place that into a larger context.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Has the Minister of Public Safety contacted you directly to consult on Bill C‑41?