Bill C-45

An Act to amend the First Nations Fiscal Management Act, to make consequential amendments to other Acts, and to make a clarification relating to another Act

This enactment amends the First Nations Fiscal Management Act to expand and modernize the mandates of the First Nations Tax Commission and the First Nations Financial Management Board in order to better reflect their current and future activities.
The enactment also establishes a First Nations Infrastructure Institute that will provide First Nations and other interested Indigenous groups and organizations with tools and support, including with respect to best practices, to implement and manage their infrastructure. It also provides First Nations named in the schedule to the First Nations Fiscal Management Act with the power to make laws to regulate services provided by or on behalf of the First Nations.
The enactment also aims to improve the functioning of that Act, including by integrating the content of the Financing Secured by Other Revenues Regulations , by combining into a single fund the debt reserve fund for financing secured by property tax revenues and the debt reserve fund for financing secured by other revenues and by simplifying the way certain Indigenous groups participate in pooled-borrowing.
Finally, the enactment makes consequential amendments to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act and includes a clarification that addresses a transitional administrative oversight that followed the establishment in 2019 of the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and the Department of Indigenous Services.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

You can see my concern. It wasn't even on the calendar to debate it at second reading, to send it to committee. Although it was a great sign of a unified front, it wasn't even on the calendar in the near future. I don't want to see Bill C-45 disappear into the abyss when it is a priority for everybody.

While unanimous consent is a tool that can be used from time to time, I don't think it should be the tool used all the time. It deserves debate in the committee room. It deserves debate in the chamber.

I'd like to, if possible—I know you don't control the House agenda—see it given a bit of priority on the government side, in order to get it on the table and in front of the House for debate, so we can push it to the Senate as quickly as possible.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

For Bill C-45, the implementation process took a long time. The partners worked on this legislation with the first nations bands. You were working with them. Through the work you did with them, this legislation was created.

You say your government is important. You say you need to work in partnership with first nations, Métis and Inuit. You have to work in partnership with all the indigenous groups.

Why is this bill only being implemented at this time, when you say it is very important? Can you answer me? Why have we been waiting for this legislation for so long?

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I think it's great that we're moving this forward. It's always nice when we can agree, at least a little bit, in this place. I appreciate your being here on this.

I want to speak to some of the comments we heard from witnesses in the last meeting, Minister. It's clear that the infrastructure institute, this idea of monetization and the ideas set out in Bill C-45 have been on your department's radar for quite some time. If I'm not mistaken, the institute itself has been part of the departmental plan since 2020.

Obviously, we're all happy to see this moving forward, but I'm wondering if you can shed some light on what happened since 2020 and why it's taken so long for us to get to this point.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

It's mainly hurdles in terms of flexibility. The act still had a lot of impediments that gave more authority to the federal government. Now the communities will have more flexibility, more room to manoeuver in seeking access to capital.

More services will be provided. Institutions are taking a closer look at the consultations that we have done over the past few years and aim to make changes in keeping with the needs of communities who want better access to capital.

Bill C‑45 gives rise to tremendous hope. The communities have been waiting for it for a long time now, and I would be thrilled if you could speed up its passing. I know that the Senate will also have a say, but we would be most grateful.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

It would be interesting to consult them afterwards. However, I do understand that it is a huge undertaking and that some considerations, whether they be ideological or political, can mean certain communities will choose not to participate under the First Nations Fiscal Management Act. Obviously, that is also their choice.

You said in your opening statement that certain hurdles have been eliminated. Setting aside those that are linked to the infrastructure project, what are the main hurdles that have been eliminated thanks to the amendments proposed in bill C‑45?

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

It is a good day today when we all agreed to move this legislation forward in the House just before we entered today. I think that's a good thing.

Minister, you and I have spoken on several occasions over the last three and a half years about different pieces of this legislation. Personally, I think the concept of monetization is a very positive step for reconciliation across our country.

Mr. Daniels from the FNFA on Monday obviously agreed, and I know you know where I'm coming from here. What he said was, “We really believe that the monetization of government transfers, be it a new source of funding or an existing source of funding, will really be a big game-changer when it comes to closing this infrastructure gap.” He went on a little bit later in our hearing on Monday to say, “I'm sure at some point in time that monetization will happen, but I just don't know when. The concept is sound. It works. Every other government does that.”

Can you just clarify for the committee whether Bill C-45 actually includes government transfers in the context of the “other revenues” component of that, in the context of what Mr. Daniels is asking for? Also, could you answer Mr. Daniels' question as to when this concept of monetization will be available to be utilized by their organization across the country?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Kwe Kwe. Tansi. Unusakut. Good day to you all.

Before I begin, I want to acknowledge our presence on the unceded territory of the Algonquin people. As well, I want to thank MP Schmale for the recent motion in the House to move things along. It's truly appreciated from this side of government.

Madam Chair and honourable committee members, thank you for inviting me today to provide an overview of Bill C-45, a legislation that would amend the First Nations Fiscal Management Act. The legislation, as you know, seeks to support indigenous self-determination and economic reconciliation.

The FNFMA supports communities in exercising jurisdiction of their financial management, property taxation and local revenues, and in financing infrastructure and economic developments. The proposed amendments to the legislation before the committee for study were co-developed by the first nations-led institutions established under the act: First Nations Tax Commission, First Nations Financial Management Board, and First Nations Finance Authority, in addition to the First Nations Infrastructure Institute's development board.

Since coming into force in 2006, the First Nations Fiscal Management Act has considerably increased the welfare as well as the economic and community development and self‑determination of over 350 participating first nations in the country.

As the leaders of the institutions told you on Monday, the amendments proposed in bill C‑45 seek to eliminate certain impediments to the economic development of indigenous communities with the goal of increasing the support and tools given to participating communities in the area of fiscal and infrastructure management.

The most important aspect of bill C‑45 is the fact that it creates a new entity, the First Nations Infrastructure Institute or FNII, which will help first nations and other interested indigenous groups, including Métis and Inuit partners, by providing them with the necessary tools, competencies and best practices to assert their jurisdiction in the area of infrastructure and asset management.

The Infrastructure Institute will help participating indigenous groups plan, acquire, own and manage infrastructure on their land.

You heard on Monday from Allan Claxton and Jason Calla of the first nations-led development board and technical working group for the First Nations Infrastructure Institute, or FNII. They have set up pilot projects across Canada that have helped to identify different service requirements to inform development of processes, standards and organizational designs for the FNII. It will, for example, support infrastructure services transfer to new indigenous organizations like the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority.

Another one of those pilot projects is with the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation in southern Ontario. Through this project, the first nation is developing a feasibility study, business case and procurement options for water and waste-water assets. They are also developing a financial model that incorporates First Nations Fiscal Management Act tools that can be used for cost recovery to support water and waste-water treatment projects and infrastructure projects, which are so crucial to economic development and to the well-being of their communities. The work is supporting Kettle and Stony Point's community vision for wealth creation, focusing on the creation of an economy for the community and its members to build housing, education and recreation spaces.

The establishment of the FNII and the success of Kettle and Stony Point are further supported by other amendments put forward in Bill C-45.

The First Nations Tax Commission's mandate would be modernized to better support first nations with their local revenue systems, to strengthen education and capacity supports, and to offer advice to self-governing first nations and other levels of government.

Meanwhile, the First Nations Financial Management Board, which helps first nations strengthen their local financial management regimes and borrow money, would see its mandate expanded so that they could offer services and certification standards to new clients, such as tribal councils and health or education authorities.

The last amendment I'd like to highlight would enhance data collection to enhance the institutions' capacity to support evidence-based planning and decision-making.

The amendments proposed in bill C‑45 are a tremendous opportunity for indigenous institutions to broaden and reinforce their mandates in order to reduce hurdles and improve access to capital and revenues, all the while supporting communities in their efforts to seek out and pursue economic development opportunities.

I look forward to answering your questions.

With that, I'm really looking forward to the questions from the committee.

Meegwetch. Thank you. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Is the interpretation service working now?

Right. Thank you very much.

Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons' website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

For those participating virtually, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting in French, English and Inuktitut. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. Please select your language now. If interpretation is lost at any point, please inform me immediately and we will ensure it is properly restored before resuming our proceedings.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name.

If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your mike will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer.

Please address your comments to the chair.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With regard to the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on April 19, 2023, the committee is continuing its study of the subject of Bill C-45, an act to amend the First Nations Fiscal Management Act.

Today we welcome the honourable Marc Miller, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations.

Thank you so much for being with us today.

We also have officials from the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs: Philippe Bertrand, manager; Christopher Duschenes, director general, indigenous institutions and governance modernization; Andrea Dixon, senior policy officer; and Karine Tremblay, senior policy analyst. We also have, from the Department of Justice, Andrew Ouchterlony, legal counsel.

Minister, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks. The floor is yours.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm really interested. I would like maybe a few people to answer if they want to. We were talking about moving at the speed of business. We talked about how it has been seven years to get to this point, but what I'm understanding by listening to some of what you have had to do in the meantime—and that's really talking about your pilot projects, about your transfer of knowledge quickly and about shared services because of our remote communities—is that you have taken it upon yourselves to try to go out and figure out what works best and learn from that. That's what I think the best thing is: when you can learn. You then can say, this worked really well, but that didn't work at all so we're going to stop and not do that again.

You're really ready to go when Bill C-45 is signed off on, and it's because of some of the work you have done historically in trying to get there. Really, what I would like to hear are some of your stories of what you've done, the challenges you've had and how you have moved this forward, because I think a real-life story means so much more than some communication on a piece of paper.

I will open that up.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

On the work that you are going to be doing, and in terms of recommendations, can you identify any recommendations in order to ensure that the work you are doing does not go to waste? For the regulations that will be created, I just don't want to create or see any barriers. Bill C-45 is one bill that's really a pleasure to hear about, but this is in order to avoid barriers in the regulations.

[Clarence T. (Manny) Jules]

A lot of first nations and other Canadians don't recognize or know their history. Taxes were a fundamental part of indigenous culture, going back many millennia. As a matter of fact, our cultures wouldn't have survived on this land without the concept of taxes.

Taksis is the Chinook spelling of “taxation”. It's a concept we understood, a concept we practised and a concept that will now be enshrined in Canadian legislation, if this particular piece of legislation is passed—Bill C-45. It was a Chinook trade language spoken in the Pacific northwest, from Alaska to northern California. It is a very important concept because it educates our people. We had these concepts that were part of our cultural milieu. It also signifies to Canada that taxation is something we're not afraid of dealing with.

Taxation is a fundamental governmental power that has its roots in the Matsqui court decision. It's one of the very first court decisions I was involved in, going to the Supreme Court of Canada. When you talk about fundamental governmental power, everybody just refers to taxation in its spelling as it is now.

When we introduce the concept of taksis, it's going to fundamentally change how we view taxation in this country, and in particular how my people—how Secwépemc and indigenous people across the country—think about taxation. It isn't a foreign concept. These are concepts we had as part of our world view. It's how we financed our infrastructure, how we financed our culture and how we financed international trade among the indigenous populations of the Americas.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for your testimonies. You testimonies are very important.

First of all, to each of the witnesses, can you share your thoughts on Bill C-45? It is simultaneously being created and the federal government is codeveloping this act with you. I'd like to understand a bit more about the process. Was it good for you? Was it satisfactory for you?

The other question I would like to ask you is whether you would want to make further amendments to the content of the Bill C-45.

Each of you can respond.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Indeed, this includes Inuit and possibly Métis. Similarly, why was no consideration given to including other indigenous groups in the definition of “borrowing member”? Perhaps they were, but I wasn't involved in the initial discussions. Why is this definition not further broadened through Bill C‑45?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank all the witnesses who are with us today. We're having very interesting discussions on a number of fronts.

Many of those present worked on the early version of Bill C‑45. I invite them to share their comments and answers with us, if they wish.

Mr. Daniels, you talked about one of the major amendments to the First Nations Fiscal Management Act, the expansion of the meaning of “borrowing member”. I'd like to know why that meaning was limited in the first place. Was it simply because the act was new? Also, while Bill C‑45 will broaden that meaning, do you think it's broad enough or could it be broadened even further?

[Ernie Daniels]

Thank you for that question. It's a really good question.

I think it fits, because all the amendments that are part of Bill C-45 have a direct impact on first nations communities, especially services to communities. We would hope that infrastructure, especially with the First Nations Infrastructure Institute coming on, will help communities to plan and build the proper infrastructure they need and with the costs associated with that. That definitely will be a benefit, for sure. The more infrastructure we can get into our communities, like health services and health and community centres, those things will benefit our communities.

In terms of reconciliation, I think it's empowering our communities to do things on their own terms and on their own time. I believe that's the whole benefit of the FNFA. It's a voluntary process as well. I strongly believe that when first nations are in control of when they do their assets, when they do their economic development and when they choose to do certain things, such as developing a property tax system, all those things are, to me, true reconciliation.

Thank you.