Evidence of meeting #5 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pakistan.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I hope so, Mr. Chair. I know you're fair.
Do you hear the interpretation now, gentlemen?
8:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I'll start over, then.
I said that I was going to give you more time to answer than you were given by the previous member. You'll be able to provide more in the way of answers.
The issue of mental health was brought up, but there's something the committee hasn't talked enough about, the mental health of veterans.
Veterans gave their Afghan partners their word that they would help them, but now that they see how difficult it is to provide that help—even impossible in some cases—how do those veterans feel? I'm talking about veterans who served in Afghanistan and want to help their Afghan partners but can't. How do they feel? Does it affect their mental health? Does it cause anxiety or even trauma?
I want to hear your views on that, since you are the ones who would know. I'd like to hear from Mr. Peddle, followed by Mr. Shelson.
8:05 p.m.
As an Individual
There is absolutely a correlation between our abandoning our Afghan allies and its becoming what we would possibly term as a “moral injury”.
It's my understanding that many veterans like me—and I can speak for myself, for sure—have suffered greatly in watching Afghanistan tear itself apart. Watching us leave the folks behind who helped us and protected us while we were there took a toll on me.
I have other veteran friends and, quite frankly, their PTSD conditions are partially fed or aggravated by the fact that we have abandoned our allies, our comrades-in-arms, our brothers we were standing shoulder to shoulder with during combat operations. It's not something that is easy to work past.
I think many veterans like me are still struggling to this day, knowing that there are people who helped us, who are still over in Afghanistan being pursued by the Taliban for the work they did in protecting us when we were there.
8:05 p.m.
As an Individual
I won't go on any further about the veteran mental health cause. Mr. Peddle did a great job of responding, and I agree.
I will speak to the mental health crisis that I believe there is within the IRCC for the folks who were answering the phones and the emails. As the veteran community, we built strong relationships with those folks inside the IRCC, and I believe this government has let them down.
Those folks were dealing with people calling—no different from somebody calling 911—and basically saying, “Save me. I'm going to die.” You have to remember, most of these folks who left Service Canada and CRA to come over to IRCC for the purpose of answering the phones or answering emails did so because they wanted to help. They thought they could make a difference. Most of these folks were working from home, communicating by Microsoft Teams and accessing your portal through a VPN. Most of these folks have still not been acknowledged for all of their hard work. Most of these folks were trying tirelessly, with a completely broken processing system, to process the applications we submitted.
Within our government bodies, I am gravely concerned about how inefficient the application processing was. I think the folks who were answering the phones and emails were gravely impacted by it.
I would like to extend this one step further, to the national mental health crisis that we have. Try to book an appointment with a psychologist right now and you will find it is going to take upwards of four to six months, if you can even find somebody.
My question for this panel is, what are all of you doing to solve the mental health crisis in this country?
8:10 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Your comments are extremely compelling. It's the first time the committee has heard them—hence, the importance of your participation today.
I've asked witnesses which recommendations the committee should prioritize in its report. We received a number of them: waive the administrative requirements; stop making people fill out forms online when their lives are in danger; remove the requirement to be a refugee for sponsorship by someone in Canada; and have a diplomatic presence on the ground, including in Pakistan, to help Afghans come to Canada.
Do you agree that those are priorities? If you had to pick one, which would it be?
I'd appreciate it if you could answer quickly. I don't have much time left.
8:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Some of this work could have been done in a third location outside of Afghanistan, like a triage. Some of the necessary steps to bring them to Canada could have been completed outside the war zone.
That could have made things far easier on everyone at the end of August, when things went sideways and people were trying to get on those last flights out of Kabul.
8:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. My number one priority is much greater than this. It's for the members of Parliament who represent all the citizens of Canada to start working better together.
I actually find it embarrassing watching everybody on TV. The rhetoric going back and forth across the House of Commons is embarrassing. We deserve better as citizens. The members of Parliament should have been sitting down at a table and coming to a solution to this problem, instead of yelling back and forth across the House of Commons and just assuming that our bureaucratic departments would figure this out.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you, Mr. Shelson.
Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. I appreciate that.
8:10 p.m.
Bloc
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
8:10 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for your service and for your presentations today. Your presentations were particularly important in helping us to find out what happened and what went wrong, and of course in helping government to learn from those errors.
Going forward, one critical issue is still getting people out. From our last panel, we heard that 52% of the people who sent an email—the government had asked them to send an email—have not even had a response. I have sent numerous spreadsheets to the government about individuals in urgent situations, and I rarely get a response.
From that perspective, what is your recommendation to the government for addressing this critical crisis for the people who have been left behind, so they can know that help can and should be on its way? What should the government do to materialize that?
I'll start with Mr. Peddle and then I'll go to Mr. Shelson.
8:10 p.m.
As an Individual
If this is potentially a manpower issue, then this is a great opportunity for the Government of Canada to create more jobs for Canadians and put them to work on these phones or processing this paperwork. Potentially some of these new Canadians who have come over from Afghanistan, who speak English because they were interpreters and who also speak flawless Dari or Pashto, could be gainfully employed in helping their brothers and sisters in Afghanistan come to Canada.
I see this as a great opportunity to employ more Canadians in a meaningful capacity that will get these Afghans out. Going forward in the future with Ukraine, it could be the same thing.
8:15 p.m.
As an Individual
One of the biggest issues here has nothing to do with manpower. I believe it has to do with the outdated IT system that the Government of Canada operates upon.
During my time working on this, I learned a ton about how these applications actually got processed inside the IRCC. Every Canadian and every Afghan should know that the portal you fill out online actually just generates an automated email that some human has to answer. That portal only actually started working close to Christmastime.
There are two different databases that these applicants' data was going into. The people answering the phones and emails don't even have access to one of them. I personally sent 15 different applications from 15 unique email addresses. Somebody within the IRCC, who was quite supportive, then looked up every single one of my emails. Guess how many they could find? One.
Where did all my emails go? Why can't our government workers access this information? There needs to be an investigation into the databases that are being used by the Canadian government. Where's all of this information? Where's all the data? Why are none of the emails being actually opened and answered?
Also, several of my emails were in spam. You're using Outlook and emails are going into spam. Could you imagine being stranded in Afghanistan and the email you sent in goes to spam? How is that possible?
8:15 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
One of the issues that the previous panels raised is the fact that biometrics are required. It is impossible for people to get it right now.
Boots on the ground with the NGOs on the ground, people who would be able to do that work, and for the government to waive the biometrics from that perspective....
I'd like to get your view on the proposal to waive the biometrics and get NGOs and people on the ground, possibly former military personnel and others, to help with this work.
Go ahead, Mr. Peddle.
8:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Having been an intelligence officer previously, I've worked extensively with biometrics and the policies surrounding them. In this particular case, we're talking today—when we're not in Afghanistan—about potentially moving them outside of the country to do biometrics. If things don't screen positively, we can always potentially send them back. That could be one option if the Taliban are allowing people to leave the country, which they say is the case. I'm sure there are a lot of complications with doing so.
Other than that, maybe, like you said, we could temporarily waive biometrics. There's a time and a place to do it elsewhere, before we integrate them into Canadian society.
8:15 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
A retired military panel has also suggested that, perhaps, for people to come to Canada, we could waive all of those requirements for them to come to Canada and then go through the process once they're here. If it doesn't pass muster, then you have a resolution to deal with that to return the individual.
Is that an option?
8:15 p.m.
As an Individual
I believe it is. This isn't the first time we've done it. The Kosovo refugees....
We bring them to Canada and put them in a secure place where they're under watch until they're properly vetted. Once they're vetted, we integrate them into the rest of society. If they don't check out, we have other mechanisms in place to send them back.
8:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much, Ms. Kwan. That's right on the dot of six minutes.
[Technical difficulty—Editor] the second round, Mr. Ruff. You have four minutes.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Thanks, Chair.
First off, thanks to both of the witnesses for coming to testify and for your service. Please keep your answers as to the point as possible, as we have four minutes.
My first question is for you, Mr. Peddle. You're a former intelligence officer and obviously tracking this. Going back to how this was forecasted, we saw all the signs coming. In your opinion, could the Canadian government have taken more action sooner, to help get Afghans out?
8:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Absolutely.
The moment that President Donald Trump announced to the world that America was leaving Afghanistan, I think anyone who was in Afghanistan knew the writing was on the wall as to what was going to happen. The question was when, and then President Biden gave a date.
There were lots of opportunities long before July or August 2021 to bring all the Afghans who helped us, who we had records of, over to Canada. There is no excuse whatsoever for us to have waited until August 2021, when we knew that Afghanistan was folding. There's no excuse whatsoever for waiting that long.
8:20 p.m.
Conservative
Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Thanks, Mr. Peddle.
Mr. Shelson, you were working the ground very early in the evacuation process. What were you hearing from people on the ground, those Afghans? What were they hearing from GAC and from the Canadian government en route to the airport?
Can you expand on some of the challenges and what they were hearing?
8:20 p.m.
As an Individual
It was quite chaotic trying to get folks into the airport. There was a gate that would open; people could move into the airport, and they would close the gate. It was simple. It was basically that, but we didn't really find out about it until afterwards.
Folks were being told to come to any gate and wait, but the Canadian forces were primarily manning one gate, the Baron gate. That was quite well known once we got to the aftermath of this.
People were being told.... Picture yourself.... I don't know if anybody has kids here. You have a few young kids, your wife, a two-year-old, a three-year-old and a four-year-old, and you get a call at four o'clock in the morning to pack up your family and get to the airport because your plane to Canada is coming. You grab your kids, throw them in a taxi and get all the way to the airport, and you wait, and you wait and you wait.
You have to remember that all of these folks had cellphones. They all had phone numbers. We were communicating with them. Why couldn't the Canadian government find a way to communicate with these folks on a one-to-one basis? Why weren't we enabling the Canadian forces on the inside of the airport to communicate with these folks on a one-to-one basis?
If we knew we weren't going to go to all the gates, why were we telling them to do that? We were just putting them at risk.