Evidence of meeting #5 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pakistan.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:15 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
For clarification, is it the intention of the committee to invite Ms. Rezayee back at another time? I understood that was what we were going to do.
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
We can try, Madam Kwan, but if it's acceptable, we can ask for a written submission to the question. If you're okay with that, I think that would be perfect for now. If we find a spot, we can bring her in, but otherwise we're fully loaded.
9:15 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Are you saying that if she sends written submissions, she would not be invited back?
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
No. If we have a chance, we will, but if we can't find a chance, we won't, if that's okay with you.
9:15 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Actually, it's not. I would like to have her back, because she's a witness I would really like to hear from.
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
My request was for her to get us the information.
My next question is for Dr. Spencer-Churchill. I would like to ask him if he can explain what role Pakistan is playing in helping to get Afghans out of Afghanistan and in regard to their resettlement to other countries.
Going forward, what would his recommendations be for the role Canada can play to evacuate Afghans, especially as many Afghans don't have valid passports? What role can Canada play in getting them out of Afghanistan, and how can neighbouring countries help in those efforts?
9:15 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
I have no specific information on the refugees; my background is obviously looking at the larger picture. I think Pakistan would be very amenable to helping Canada if Canada were to engage Pakistan, obviously with a price tag, for development. Pakistan's influence in Afghanistan is frequently exaggerated, but if it's tied to aid, Canada's had a very good experience at all levels of providing aid in Pakistan, and Pakistan is very likely to provide what Canada needs with the Taliban. Obviously, it means Canada will have to engage with the Taliban government and give them legitimacy. Unfortunately, I don't have more detail than that.
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
Thank you for that.
I'll go to Mr. Spencer-Churchill really quickly to elaborate on my colleague's question.
Mr. Spencer-Churchill, you mentioned that you did a lot of research in Pakistan and in the region. Would you be able to provide some insights into how Pakistan or neighbouring countries can play a wider role in assisting our evacuation efforts? I know you can't really.... You said nothing specific in terms of refugees, but in terms of neighbouring countries, with your research in the region....
9:15 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
Pakistan, as I mentioned in my comments, is an extremely narrow objective. The foreign aid community has given Afghanistan consistent assistance in avoiding addressing the main issue, which is recognition of the frontier. If anyone were to deliver that to Pakistan simply by opening a dialogue with Afghans, who have resisted this one policy request from Pakistan for a very long time, then Pakistan is very likely to normalize its relationship with Afghanistan and be a very co-operative conduit.
The main problem with Afghanistan and the west is that it's perceived to be a religiously intense country, where you have Takfiri political interests but no religious party has ever received more than 5% of the vote at the federal level. Not in the current Parliament, but in the previous legislature, about 20% of the legislators had dual citizenship with the U.S., Canada and the U.K. The body politic there is quite sympathetic with Liberal values. Obviously they're in a difficult spot for strategic reasons, but Pakistan is far easier to engage with than is frequently portrayed.
9:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much.
I will go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for five minutes, please.
9:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses. Unfortunately, one witness had to leave us.
You're being here this evening is extremely important. I know it's getting late. Please don't blame the technicians or the interpreters. It's not their fault. They work very hard; our hats off to them.
Mr. Spencer‑Churchill, I had a chance to review your submission to the committee. You don't pull any punches, you don't beat around the bush, no one is spared.
Should Canada endeavour to work with Pakistan more seriously when it comes to its relationship with Afghanistan? Is that the gist of your remarks this evening?
9:20 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
Yes, that's right.
It's too bad that we didn't sign agreements with Pakistan on a range of issues during the 14 years we were in Afghanistan. The problem is that our development strategy didn't make sense from the get‑go.
Now the challenge is evacuating people and reviving development efforts in Afghanistan. It can still be done, in my view. I repeat, I have a lot more development experience in Pakistan. During the Canadian International Development Agency days, we even had access to villages in the most culturally conservative areas of Pakistan. That's not the problem.
The problem is this idea that engaging directly with the Pakistani government is wrong. I have a different view. I have met with six of Canada's high commissioners in Pakistan, and they all agree that North America is culturally resistant to the idea of engaging with Pakistan.
9:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
What you're telling us is important. We've heard from a number of witnesses who said that a Canadian presence on the ground, in Pakistan, would be beneficial and make it easier to bring refugees to Canada. What you're telling us is significant, then.
What are the benefits of a stronger diplomatic presence in Pakistan? What are the barriers?
9:20 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
Are you asking about the benefits of being on the ground, in Pakistan?
9:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Yes, and I also want to know about the barriers. You brought up the cultural barriers, but are there others?
9:20 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
The barriers flagged by the high commissioners include those created by our allies.
For example, initially, Canada had a program through which Pakistani officers would train with Canadian armed forces, just as they did with the French and British armed forces. That program was discontinued for more than 10 years, however, because of the Americans.
As a result of the program, Pakistan's army is now one of the organizations providing the most support for democracy. It may seem counterintuitive, but every time a coup d'état is staged to take control of the government, the army immediately tries to put it down. In almost every case, it gets involved in politics because civilian corruption jeopardizes the national defence budget. The army wants to fix that and get out of that corruption.
We had a significant influence in Pakistan through that organization, but the program was cancelled, before being renewed in 2015, if I'm not mistaken. Canada's approach is a bit schizophrenic: it doesn't know what to do and follows the advice of the wrong allies.
9:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Basically, you're saying that, if the west wants to rebalance its relationship with Afghanistan, inevitably, Pakistan has to play a central role.
9:20 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
Yes, always and on a number of levels, ranging from international refugees and security to intelligence and counterterrorism. All of it depends on Pakistan.
9:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
The focus of this evening's meeting is the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan. Logically, you're saying that Pakistan should play a central role and that Canada isn't doing what it should on that front.
9:20 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
That's right, and Pakistani resistance is not the issue. I can give you examples of Pakistan's presence in Canada. The family of Pakistan's third-highest ranking commissioner lives in Oakville, Ontario. Pakistan's deputy chief of army staff, a former agriculture minister, lived in Alberta for a year. Canada has a lot of Pakistanis who hold high-ranking positions in Pakistan, but that escapes recognition.
9:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you for that information, Mr. Spencer‑Churchill.
9:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. We appreciate that.
Without further ado, we're going to go to Madam Kwan for five minutes.
9:25 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for your presentations. I would like to turn first to Ms. Hansen.
One of the issues we're faced with right now, of course, is that the Canadian government's refugee program for Afghans requires someone to be in a third country. However, many people are stuck in Afghanistan and are not able to get to a third country. From that perspective, what suggestions do you have so that we can help some of the people in Afghanistan to get to safety and be able to come to Canada?
9:25 p.m.
Director of Operations, Vector Global Solutions
My response would be that we have a handful of intermediary countries, the third countries.... An operation like that would look like landing in Kabul.
The only thing I believe that's really holding us back from bringing people directly from Afghanistan to Canada is biometrics. However, if we're only dealing specifically with intermediary countries, we have Pakistan at the moment. We also have the UAE, and they have the humanitarian city there. The UAE has agreed to take individuals from Afghanistan if they have a flight from Afghanistan to the UAE, to their humanitarian city. They're willing to do that if the Canadian government is willing to start assisting with some of the backlog within the humanitarian city. At the moment, there are several individuals in Afghanistan who have onward travel to Canada. They've accepted travel. They have a clear path of travel, and all that's standing in the way is a flight to pick them up and transport them to the UAE. The biometrics are done there. There is a consulate there, a high commission, and then they go onward to Canada.
I believe the only thing standing in the way really is the flight and just for Canada to maybe say that we'll help with the backlog. You had all these groups that jumped in. You had these non-profit groups that jumped in, the evacuation groups. They pick people up, they drop them off in the UAE and say, “Bye.” This is why we have a backlog there now.
We can use the humanitarian city. I have confirmation that we can use it. It's just a matter of maybe the IRCC saying, “Okay, we want categories. We'll take 100 orphans, 100 unaccompanied minors, 100 doctors,” or whoever they want. As long as they see somebody helping them with the backlog at the humanitarian city in the UAE, we are able and allowed to use the UAE as an intermediary country.
How they would get there is through a non-profit organization such as ours, or perhaps another credible one in Canada, such as Aman Lara, or whoever has flights. If the government is paying for the flights, funding the flights, because the cost to run a flight is something.... It's very difficult to raise those kinds of funds.
My answer is that it's a matter of having the funding, picking them up in Afghanistan and transporting them to the UAE.