Afghanistan Committee on March 28th, 2022

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the witnesses.

We recently learned that the Taliban regime will ban young girls from attending school and that some parents are selling their underage daughters. In my opinion, this is practically a crime against humanity. We know very well that women's rights are not respected.

Before I go further and ask my question, with all respect to Ms. Armstrong, when you end your comments by saying that either the IRCC is incompetent or they don't choose to do so, I categorically refute that. I can assure you that they are very competent, and they have a strong will to do so, but let me give you some of the issues.

First of all, if you compare it to Syria or to Ukraine, the situation is not the same. Getting out of Afghanistan is a terrible process. In Syria, they were recognized by the United Nations refugee commissioner. You know very well that in Afghanistan more than 2.6 million persons have been displaced.

Canada has taken in the largest share of refugees and is committed to resettling these people. For over three years, Canada has been a world leader in this area. The Department of Citizenship and Immigration must view the safety of Canadians as a priority.

If we speed up the process and let anyone into Canada, can you guarantee that no Taliban or Islamic State people will enter Canada? That would be a security problem. That responsibility rests on the shoulders of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and all levels of government in Canada.

Ms. Armstrong, these are the questions I would like to ask you.

What can the international community do to help these women and girls and to reduce the number of displaced people and refugees?

Can you name one country in the world that has done more for Afghans than Canada?

[Sally Armstrong]

Is your question to me?

I agree with what you said. This is our wheelhouse. Canada is terrific at this. We've shown it over and over again. Communities across this country and spiritual centres can do it.

I can tell you, sir, that I have been trying to get Afghans out of Afghanistan since August. I have a paper trail as long as you like to show that IRCC does not respond, or they ask a question and then don't respond or they don't issue the letters required. They are simply not doing the job they're supposed to do. You seem to be angry that I'm pointing that out. Well, I can imagine how upset people whose lives are at risk are when they're getting these nonsensical forms and they're not getting a reply. I don't understand why that is happening. I have had meetings with people there who say, “We're overwhelmed. We have too much work.” Then hire more people.

I feel your anger with what I said, but I stand by what I said. Canadians are good at this. We are, I dare say, the best in the world at bringing in people, resettling them, restarting their lives, but if we can't get them here, then we can't do that for them.

I believe the government needs to put a great deal of attention and effort into IRCC, even if it takes money, so they can do the job that Canadians expect them to do.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I'm not angry at all, but I'm giving you facts and I'm giving you reasons in terms of the responsibility of our government. I ask you, give me the name of one single country in the world that has done more than Canada. I gave you a number, about the 2.6 million Afghans who are displaced and what Canada did.

Anyway, Madame, my second question is also for you.

What might be the potential consequences of prohibiting women from participating meaningfully in political, economic and social life for Afghanistan and this region?

How do you see the role of the international community, and can you deny Canada's role as a leader in this regard?

[Sally Armstrong]

Again, as Heather Barr said, that's who we are. We've said we are the community that can promote women into those positions so they can be part of the living country. There have to be ways.

You know, sir, I wish I could say to you that this is what you need to do—this, this and this—and we solve the whole problem. What I feel is that we should put people together in a room who know what to do and who have new ideas, like those scientists who got a vaccine in a year. Get people together. Clearly what we're doing isn't working.

We have a lot of evidence around the world right now, Ukraine being a perfect example. We need people who are aware, as you are, of policies and aware, as Dr. Samar is, of situations on the ground, and as Heather Barr—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

Mr. El-Khoury, your time is up.

We will proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes, please. Go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all the witnesses who are appearing to contribute to this study, which is very important.

I don't think the witnesses are here to be berated or hectored. I think everybody is here to contribute to this study, which is to look at the current humanitarian crisis and what can be done now and in the short term. This is more important than any little partisan war.

Ms. Armstrong, you were questioned by my colleague Mr. El-Khoury. I would like to know what priority you think should be reflected in the recommendations of this report. This report is important because it will determine what needs to be done now and in the future for the people of Afghanistan, and how Canada can help them.

What do you think that priority is?

I will then ask Ms. Samar and Ms. Barr the same question.

[Sally Armstrong]

Is the question addressed to Ms. Samar?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The question is addressed to you first.

What do you think should be the priority among the recommendations in our report?

[Sally Armstrong]

I completely agree with the recommendations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Dr. Samar, go ahead, please.

[Sima Samar]

I think—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Is there a problem with the interpretation, Mr. Chair?

If so, I would not want it to be taken out of my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Don't worry. I'll take care of it.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Samar, what priority do you think should be among the recommendations in the report this committee will write for the Canadian government?

[Sima Samar]

Number one is support for educational programs at any level, at all political and funding levels, focusing particularly on women and girls, because I believe education is the strongest tool to fight against ignorance.

Number two is support for access to health services, including reproductive health and access to contraception, because we really need to reduce the number of children in order to reduce the firewood for the terrorists groups.

Number three, we all need to have an honest, comprehensive assessment of what has been done wrong or what has gone wrong in order to have a better-coordinated, long-term strategy for a country like Afghanistan.

Number four, again, the problems in Afghanistan will not stay within our boundary walls. They will reach anywhere.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Samar.

Ms. Barr, I'd like to know what you think the priority is, but first I'd like to hear your opinion, as you are part of a non-governmental organization working on the ground.

The representatives of some NGOs testified before the committee; they said that it was very difficult for them to do their work on the ground. Indeed, since the Taliban are considered a terrorist organization, NGOs are afraid of being prosecuted for a violation of the Canadian Criminal Code.

Is this a problem experienced by the NGOs you work with on the ground? How could we address this?

[Heather Barr]

I'll answer first what my first priority would be. I would really like to see Canada reaching out to France, Germany and Sweden, and working together to step in and guide where feminist foreign policy should be taking global policy for all countries on Afghanistan.

It is worth mentioning how much consensus there is across countries about the fact that what the Taliban is doing on women's rights, and other human rights, is beyond the pale. We've seen condemnations over the school ban from the OIC, Turkey, and Qatar. Everyone agrees. What's missing is leadership, and I want those four countries to provide that.

In terms of your question about operating on the ground, we don't actually have anyone in country. We're having a very hard discussion about whether we can go or not, because the risk is not to us, but to the people we would talk to. We are very afraid that if we went and interviewed people, and did research in Afghanistan, the Taliban would retaliate against the people we spoke with, and we would have no ability at all to protect them. That is one of the constraints we are facing, more than the issue about being classified as a terrorist group.

That's a very hard thing to figure out. For the moment, we've been doing our research remotely in ways that still bring a lot of security challenges. We're seeing a lot of concerns about the monitoring of people's phones, social media, and so on. It definitely feels like there is a net tightening in some very frightening ways.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Barr.

The NGO representatives who testified before the committee told us that since the Taliban are recognized in Canada as a terrorist group, they could be prosecuted under the Canadian Criminal Code if they do business with them.

Are you aware of this problem?

[Heather Barr]

We are not facing that problem, because we're not delivering aid, but I think that's a serious problem. It's one the Canadian government can address, and should address. It is important for all governments, and the UN, to make it clear that anyone who is delivering humanitarian assistance, and other important aid, is not going to be subject to sanctions, because they have no choice but to engage with the Taliban in delivering that type of assistance.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Barr.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We'll now go to Ms. Kwan, for six minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the panellists. Those were exceptional presentations from all of you.

In terms of helping Afghans get to safety, we've heard from the previous panel and other witnesses that one of the key barriers is the fact that the Canadian government requires refugee determination from the UNHCR, and that is impossible for people to get, because there are no UNHCR offices operating there.

Would you support the call for the government to waive the refugee determination requirement for Afghans?

I will go to Ms. Barr first, but I'd like to have all the witnesses answer this question.

[Heather Barr]

Absolutely. I went through this process myself, trying to assist one particular family and trying to get help from UNHCR here in Islamabad. You go to the website, and it says you can't come to its office without an appointment. To get an appointment, you have to call a particular number. I called that number 29 times. Most of the time, it just rang and no one answered. Three times someone answered, and then hung up on me.

I'm a privileged white American lawyer who works for an NGO, so I tweeted about it, and somebody sent me a phone number of a friend who works at UNHCR. I was able to get an appointment that way, but that's not a route available to Afghans who come here and don't necessarily speak English or Urdu, and can't get a SIM card if they don't have a valid visa. It's impossible.

Another friend of mine was similarly trying to help a family get to the UNHCR, so they could register. She said she was calling the same number, and she got through the 258th time she called. That's a completely unworkable system that's set up to stop people from accessing it.

Absolutely, Canada should waive that requirement.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Samar, I would ask you the same question.

[Sima Samar]

I fully agree with Ms. Barr. I think the other solution would be to have more staff for UNHCR in those countries where we have a lot of refugees, if the first one is not possible. But I think I'll go for the first part—that they waive that. Really, it's the staff of the human rights commission and well-known human rights defenders who are still in the country and taking a lot of risk, unfortunately. Some people who have not been at risk have already been evacuated.

There should be a very honest and thorough kind of program run by Canada or any other countries that are really trying to help.