Evidence of meeting #15 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was detainees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes, that would be correct.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
When the Minister of Defence tells us that he has not seen Mr. Colvin's documents, and other ministers tell us that absolutely nothing took place, do you feel that they are, in a way, participating in this culture of secrecy? Really, even if it was only a matter of allegations, I feel that any self-respecting minister has to make some attempt to find out the truth and whether anything actually went on. The impression is that government ministers had washed their hands of it. Do you share my opinion at all?
4:05 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
It is very difficult for me to answer that question. It is very possible that General Hillier decided not to tell the minister. That is part of the culture. I worked for a year with colleagues from the Department of National Defence. A lot of them are very open and regular people. But there are others who do not trust civilians. In my opinion, the policy on detainees was kept secret even from the minister. As a policy, that, to me, was indefensible.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
It was kept secret even from the minister. Now, you wanted to testify before the Military Police Complaints Commission. It was not the military who prevented you from testifying.
4:05 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
That is true.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
So politicians set about keeping under wraps things that the military perhaps wanted to hide. It is a vicious circle, right? They really want to keep everything hidden, so they gag witnesses and put an end to commissions. I have to say that it is partly because of that that we are forced to do the work here that the politicians are trying to stop being done elsewhere. Do you share that opinion?
4:05 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes. I am talking about the situation in 2007 when the military was perhaps not talking to the politicians. But now, it is not the military who are trying to prevent witnesses from—
4:05 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Not at all.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Colvin, for coming today.
We've heard a lot of pretty bold assumptions being made across the floor, some you agreed with and some you didn't necessarily agree with. Why did you decide to appear today as an individual instead of as a public servant?
4:10 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I'm not aware that I'm here as an individual and not as a public servant.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
In your affidavit, point number 64, you referred to first-hand information.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I want to ask you a pointed question. Did you ever see torture with your own eyes, or is all of your information second-hand?
4:10 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I saw first-hand people who testified that they had been tortured and had marks of torture. I didn't witness any acts of torture.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Those marks of torture, or marks of physical distress, is it possible they were received through capture, or through self-infliction? These folks are instructed to carry out acts that will divert attention from the truth.
4:10 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
We monitored four individuals in Kabul. One didn't want to talk to us. Draw whatever conclusion you like. Of the other three, none of them, off the bat, mentioned torture. They all said things were fine. It was only when we pressed them--what happened in Kandahar--that they became responsive. And each response was distinct. One got very quiet, and just said he'd been hurt. One said that it was nothing, that he had only been beaten for a few days. He had marks of having been beaten. The other described, in a more pained way, what had happened to him, and he also had marks on his body. So our sense—there were three of us who took part in this monitoring visit—was that these were credible reports, consistent with the larger body of reporting on NDS practices in Kandahar.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
So these reports weren't first-hand. They were basically second-hand from people within the prison system.
4:10 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
They were first-hand to the extent that we sat and talked to the people who had been tortured.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
We can discuss how Taliban somebody is or what he's carried out. But these are people, some of them at least, who have been engaged in killing or trying to kill Canadians as well as their own people.
4:10 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
There's a complication here. We had a hard time finding the people we wanted to monitor. So we monitored four people and we weren't sure who they were, because the records weren't that good. Later, we got better information. Of the four, maybe only one was actually one of the four we were looking for.
We were in the NDS jail, and they brought these people in and left us alone. There was no guard, no one outside the door. We just sat there with these people, and it was very relaxed. When we drove away, they were escorted back to their cells, just walking hand in hand, laughing with their jailers. It was a very low-security environment. If they were hardened Taliban, they were certainly endangering our lives by leaving us there. But they seemed to be confused people who the jailers weren't treating as dangerous indivduals.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Is it fair to say the conditions in Afghan prisons are different from conditions in Canadian prisons?
