Afghanistan Committee on May 7th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I call the meeting to order.

This is the fifth meeting of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan, pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, February 10, 2009, the study of Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

Today we have two panels, plus we need a few minutes at the end of our time for some committee business. We will hear witnesses on the new Shia family law in Afghanistan. To that end, our first panel for an hour will include Mr. Brodeur--he has been here before and we know him well--and Stephen Wallace. Stephen Wallace is the vice-president of the Afghanistan Task Force, and I understand Gallit Dobner is here as back-up.

We'll get started. I think you're both familiar with how it proceeds. You'll have a chance to give us opening remarks, and then we'll open it up for a round of questioning. We're really looking forward to having this debate here today. After your panel's done, we'll take a brief break and bring on the next panel.

I don't know who's going to start, but the floor is yours.

Thank you.

[Yves Brodeur, Assistant Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, members of the committee, thank you once again for giving us the opportunity to explain to you what we do in Afghanistan.

I will start with a brief opening statement. I'll probably read a little fast because I think it's a little longer than it should be; nevertheless, it's quite important to understand what we've been doing there.

The Government of Canada was deeply concerned to learn in late March that the President of Afghanistan had signed a Shia personal status law that contravened Afghanistan's human rights obligations. Our response was immediate. Canada was a leading voice in the international community's condemnation of the law. On April 4, Afghan President Hamid Karzai announced the launch of a process of review, during which time the law would not be promulgated.

Today Stephen Wallace and I will provide you with an overview of the law, Canada's response to the law, the Afghan government's commitment to review the law, and Canada's broader approach to supporting Afghan efforts to promote and protect human rights, in particular women's rights, in Afghanistan.

The Shia are a minority group in Afghanistan who make up roughly 10% of the population. Article 131 of Afghanistan's 2004 constitution guarantees the Shia the right to resolve family disputes according to Shia jurisprudence. For many Shia, the Shia personal status law is an important affirmation of their place in Afghan society after centuries of oppression.

Members of the Afghan government and civil society began drafting the Shia personal status law in 2005. The law was submitted to the lower house of the Afghan National Assembly in November 2008. We were not aware of the substance of the law. The Afghan government does not appear to have followed standard procedure in considering and ultimately signing the law.

First, according to standard legislative procedure, both the lower and upper houses should have undertaken an article-by-article review of the legislation; however, members of Parliament simply voted to confirm the law in full, deferring the question of each article's legality to Afghanistan's Supreme Court.

Second, the Supreme Court never actually received the draft law. Instead, the law went straight to the Ministry of Justice for transmission to the President.

Third, President Karzai reportedly did not review the nearly 300-page law in its entirety before signing it, and his aides did not brief him fully about the content.

The law signed by the President includes provisions on marriage, divorce, inheritance, right of movement, and bankruptcy. The most troubling provisions relate to guardianship of children; marriage of minors; sexual relations in marriage; restrictions on women's rights to work, education, and health care; women's right to leave the home; and inheritance.

The law was not a focus of Afghan national political debate. We are unaware of any domestic media coverage in Afghanistan during this legislative process. Rights & Democracy referred to the law as part of a broader routine report submitted to CIDA headquarters in October 2008, without referring to specific provisions of the law.

The Canadian embassy in Kabul knew that a process to consider the law was under way, but the embassy had no specific knowledge of the provisions of the law or when it was scheduled for consideration by the National Assembly. The embassy found out from an international partner that this legislation had been signed by the President on Tuesday, March 24, 2009. Canada found out about the law at the same time as the rest of the international community, much of Afghan civil society, and even some members of the Afghan legislature who had been involved in the approval process.

Canadian officials at the embassy acted immediately. They informed Ottawa on March 25, and as details of the law were scarce, they began actively seeking additional information on the law. Once Canadian officials were able to confirm that the law was indeed inconsistent with Afghanistan's international human rights commitments, Canada launched a robust advocacy campaign.

Minister Cannon immediately raised the issue with Afghan Foreign Minister Spanta and Afghan Interior Minister Athahar on March 31, 2009, at an international conference on Afghanistan in The Hague. He expressed Canada's grave concerns about the substance of the law.

The Prime Minister publicly underscored Canada's deep concern at the G20 meeting, underlining that "we cannot state strongly enough our concern for the rights of women in Afghanistan."

Canadian officials intervened with the President's office in Kabul and with Afghan Ambassador to Canada, Omar Samad, in Ottawa. We reiterated Canada's deep concern with the Afghan government's decision to pass the law. Indeed, Canada has been recognized as a leader among international partners on this issue.

On April 4, 2009, President Karzai committed to undertaking a review of the law to ensure its consistency with the Afghan constitution and international law. When Mr. Cannon again raised the law with his Afghan counterpart, Minister Spanta, by telephone on April 5, the Afghan foreign minister assured Canada that the law had been stopped.

In an April 6 statement the Afghan Ministry of Justice confirmed that the law would not be published in the official gazette until the review was complete. The Ministry of Justice has since established a body composed of legal experts, scholars, government representatives, and civil society organizations to propose revisions to the law. We understand this body will submit consolidated recommendations to the Ministry of Justice, which in turn will subsequently redraft the law for submission to the Afghan Parliament for approval.

The Afghan government expects that the review will take two or three months. We therefore do not anticipate a response from the Afghans until July at the earliest.

Both President Karzai and Ambassador Samad have publicly admitted that passage of the law was an error. Ambassador Samad noted that Afghanistan is a young and immature democracy in a very difficult cultural context. “We are going to fall down,” he said. “We are going to make mistakes, and we're going to move forward as a result.”

On April 27 President Karzai announced that the review was under way and amendments would be made.

Canada will continue to press the Afghan government at the highest levels to meet its international obligations, including respect for the equality of women before the law. In this context, Canada's Ambassador to Afghanistan, Ron Hoffmann, most recently met with President Karzaï on April 16 and with the Speaker of Afghanistan's Lower House on April 19 to express Canada's concerns and urged the government to ensure its review process is comprehensive and consistent with Afghan and international law. Earlier on, Canadian officials also met with the Second vice-President, the Minister of Justice, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, the Attorney General and other government officials and prominent politicians.

Canada will continue to support the review process, as necessary and appropriate, in cooperation with Afghan officials and civil society and the international community. Moreover, Canada deployed a legal gender expert to the Afghan Ministry of Justice in early March; she is helping to build the capacity of its legislative drafting unit more broadly.

At this point I'd like to turn the floor over to my colleague to provide you with information on Canada's support to the promotion and protection of human rights in Afghanistan and, in particular, Canada's efforts to support women's rights.

Merci.

[Stephen Wallace, Vice-President, Afghanistan Task Force, Canadian International Development Agency]

Thank you very much,

Mr. Chair, for the opportunity you have given me this morning to address the committee.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to supplement the comments from my colleague from Foreign Affairs with some additional information concerning Canada's support of the promotion and protection of human rights in Afghanistan, particularly the human rights of women and girls.

We have an established track record of supporting institutions that protect and promote human rights in Afghanistan. Notable among these initiatives is our support to the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission. We are currently providing $7 million to enable the commission to implement its three-year action plan. This will make Canada the lead donor to this important Afghan institution.

Under Afghanistan's constitution, the commission is mandated to promote and protect human rights by monitoring and investigating complaints of all alleged human rights violations. In the context of today's discussion, the commission is also playing an important role in Afghan responses to the Shia personal status law.

Beyond our direct support to the commission, Canada is supporting several initiatives that are enhancing access to justice for Afghans. Canada recently announced support to the Ministry of Justice's human rights support unit. This unit is responsible for assisting Afghan government agencies to incorporate and internalize human rights in their policies, legislation, and respective areas of responsibility.

At a very practical level, we've been supporting an initiative of the International Criminal Defence Attorneys Association and the International Legal Foundation to improve the fairness of the Afghan criminal justice system through the provision of legal aid to destitute Afghans.

Within this broader human rights agenda, Canada has paid particular attention to the human rights of women. With CIDA's support, Rights and Democracy is playing a leading role in the reform of family law, an issue that particularly touches on the human rights of women and children.

I am pleased to see that Mr. Beauregard and Mr. Panossian will be appearing before the committee in less than an hour.

The $5 million Rights in Practice initiative comprises a very practical aspect, having opened legal aid clinics in six provinces to improve women and girls' access to the formal justice system.

In addition to its human rights-specific work, Canada is providing significant support to programs that are promoting the rights of women and children, particularly girls. As part of Canada's six priorities in Afghanistan, we are supporting a full range of projects that improve education, maternal and infant health, women's access to the labour market and their political participation. Our contribution to enhancing access to education, particularly for girls, is widely known.

The Prime Minister over the course of the last 24 hours has made an announcement in Afghanistan in this regard.

Canada is also recognized as a lead donor to the Education Quality Improvement Program, a national program that is supporting the Ministry of Education to deliver quality education services to girls and boys by building the capacity of communities to manage learning activities, by investing in human resources including female teachers and by constructing and rehabilitating schools.

So we have a portfolio of initiatives that are strengthening as well women's capacities as economic actors, including through access to credit and vocational training. Of 440,000 clients reached through business and financial services across Afghanistan through Canadian-supported programs, approximately two-thirds are women. We are making important contributions to the health of women and children through initiatives that are promoting access to essential high-quality health care, immunization, food, and nutrition.

Since 2005 we've had a gender adviser in the Ministry of the Interior. She's been extraordinarily successful, in our view, in working on some of the most difficult and sensitive issues facing women in Afghanistan and has introduced gender-specific programs into the Afghan National Police, including family response units for cases of domestic violence, staffed by female police officers. Most recently, Canada is focusing attention on women's political participation, in the context of the upcoming elections in 2009.

While much of work is through large national programs, we recognize the important role of Afghan civil society in advancing progress and giving voice to the aspirations of Afghans with respect to the situation of women and girls. Our Responsive Fund for the Advancement of Women is a quick-response mechanism that provides small, strategic support to these organizations.

For example, through RFAW, Canada is supporting the training of 300 female and male journalists to raise their awareness of children's rights, gender equality and the participation of women.

Without question, these initiatives are making a difference in the lives of many women and girls. However, progress is painstaking, and huge challenges remain. Our immediate focus with respect to the Shia personal status law is to identify additional initiatives during the review period that can help address the failures in the underlying process that led to the version of the law signed in March.

We are working, therefore, with existing partners such as Rights & Democracy, the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, Afghan parliamentarians, and civil society organizations to support their effectively playing their respective roles in the review process. Our core objective remains to build Afghan capacity and participation, inside and outside of government, to address the daunting human rights challenges that have held back progress for too long.

Mr. Chairman, in conclusion,

Women in Afghanistan continue to face many hardships and challenges. They continue to be exposed to violence and poverty, and deprived of basic human rights to property, education and literacy. Change will be slow and there will be setbacks along the way.

However, we cannot overlook the progress women have made since 2001. Today, Afghan women represent 27% of Afghan parliamentarians, more than 2 million girls are enrolled in school, and more than 290,000 women have accessed small loans and savings services across the country. Afghan women themselves have been catalysts and leaders of development along the way.

There are no silver bullets, Mr. Chairman, for making progress on human rights. History shows that progress and the promotion and protection of human rights most often consists of small steps taken over long periods. If anything, however, recent events in Afghanistan have deepened our engagement with Afghanistan on questions of vital importance, such as the status of women and girls. Many Afghans working on human rights have told us that recent events have been a wake-up call that can place them in a stronger position and allow them to come together with a common and stronger voice.

Mr. Chairman, we'd be happy to answer the committee's questions on the Shia personal status law and our more general support to the human rights of women and girls in Afghanistan.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you both.

We'll get right to the questions. We'll start with the official opposition, with Mr. Wilfert.

You have five minutes.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The family code only applies to the Afghan Shia minority and not to all women, but there's a concern about it being a precedent. I want to ask you the question about competing visions for the Afghan mission. The President of the United States has now indicated that he's moved basically from democratic nation-building to the issue of dealing with the staging grounds for terrorists.

Was the liberation of Afghan women ever really part of our mission for going into Afghanistan? What have we really done in terms of responding? We say there's no silver bullet. I don't know whether there are any bullets in terms of addressing the issues. In this case, what are we doing now, since then, to register...? If this can pass without comment until afterwards, and then people say they haven't read it—the President has admitted it—how do we ensure the kind of capacity-building we need in order to prevent these kinds of things in the future? What is the role of our mission in this context?

My two colleagues also have two questions.

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you for the question. I think it's a fundamental one.

I want to start by saying that the issue of rights was always at the heart of our preoccupation when we went into Afghanistan. It's not the only one, but it's a very important one. It's reflected in the objectives we have adopted. Building a society in which human rights are respected and the Afghans have the capacity to help the members of their society express themselves, enjoy their full rights, is really front and centre in what we're trying to do.

In terms of building capacity, we are doing a number of things. My colleague mentioned some of them in his statement. Before I give the floor to Stephen, let me say again that we're all on the same page: a functioning Afghan society that is safe and secure must include protection of rights as well as a capacity for the Government of Afghanistan to offer that option to its people.

[Stephen Wallace]

Thank you very much for the question. I think it really would be useful, perhaps, to go through Canada's six priorities and how the crosswalk to human rights is important.

If you take, for example, Canada's first priority, on security and the rule of law, we see the critical importance of security for all and the particular situation of women in that regard. Our program, for example, with the Ministry of the Interior on policing and the expansion of policing services to include both protection of women and victims of violence, but also the expansion of Canadian mentoring and of the actual complement of female police officers in the country, has been part and parcel of our effort.

With respect to the rule of law element within that priority, the discussion we had this morning with respect to family law and the overall sense of how human rights and justice fits within it is a core element of what we do.

When we move from there to the aspect of basic services, as the second of Canada's six priorities, here we are looking at education for girls and education for women as part of a targeted effort by Canada to provide the basic services that connect citizens to the state. That has been one element of our effort.

We have done very specific work on maternal and child health, including signature efforts on polio, efforts on tuberculosis, and work to try to provide the basic services to citizens in an area that tries to target those most deprived elements of society—in this case, women and girls in particular.

The same thing applies to humanitarian assistance, an area in which we're doing a lot of work in targeting our food aid and food for literacy. The work we're doing, for example, in Kandahar on food for literacy has provided support for 11,000 women to gain literacy for the very first time.

We can see, across all six of our priorities, the entry point on how human rights and the protection of women and girls is important to meeting our objectives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

You still have time.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The west was strongly criticized by a women who was a spokesperson for the Independent Human Rights Commission. The criticism was that we let this happen and that we must have known about it.

I accept entirely Mr. Brodeur's testimony that the Government of Canada in fact didn't know about it. But the second, related real issue is presumably that if there's a Shia family law that has gone through, there's also a Sunni family law that is being drafted. I wonder what lessons we have learned from this experience with respect to the Shia family law situation to figure out what to do.

Let me just emphasize that I'm not suggesting this is easy. The notion that we're going to turn Afghanistan into a secular, liberal democracy in short order is frankly, from my perspective, nonsense. That's not going to happen. We somehow have to figure out what the acceptable middle ground is between not only us but all the western countries who are NATO, who were there so strongly, and whatever values emerge.

Perhaps one of you could advise us with respect to the second shoe that's going to drop. It's a majority Sunni population. If there's a Sunni family law coming—and I assume there is one coming—it's going to be quite a big deal with respect to some of these issues.

[Yves Brodeur]

Thanks for your question.

There is a family law in Afghanistan. It has existed since the beginning of the 20th century. It's based on Sunni jurisprudence, basically because the Sunni community is the largest in Afghanistan. There's a drafting committee right now in Afghanistan looking just at family law, with a view to actually making it suitable for the larger population. That committee is composed of Afghan experts. We've been supporting that work directly through a person who is actually advising and helping to make sure that the law meets the international requirements as well as the Afghan constitution. Also, Rights & Democracy--and you'll have a chance to ask Mr. Beauregard about that--has been engaged in trying to make sure this law actually meets the requirements.

The Shia personal status law is a totally separate matter, and it is essentially done in the context of the Afghan constitution, which guarantees the Shia minority that actually their rights will be recognized.

So we're working hard again, with the Afghans, to try to make sure that the family law now under consideration and being drafted is in line with standards, from both the Afghan and international perspectives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We'll go to Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't usually believe in conspiracy theories, but what we have heard today is almost unbelievable. I'll tell you what I have been thinking. There's a little voice telling me that what we are hearing today, with all due respect to the witness, is an attempt at damage control.

I have a great deal of difficulty understanding how all the normal procedures surrounding a bill could have been short-circuited. Moreover, I find that Canada seems to be patting itself on the back for having rectified the situation. That's what my inner voice is telling me.

It seems, when you say that Canada wasn't aware... We'll be asking a question later about the Strategic Advisory Team, which was replaced by civilians. They are supposed to be close to the president. You will have to tell me how many people are on that team. These people usually should be aware of any forthcoming bills. They're not military members, they are people from civil society who are accustomed to this type of bill. Normally, they should have been aware of it. My inner voice is still telling me that even if I don't believe in conspiracies, I have been in politics long enough to know that sometimes, political strategies resemble conspiracies.

Do you really believe that the president signed off on a bill that he was not familiar with, that he was poorly advised, that customary parliamentary procedure was short-circuited and that the matter was referred to the Supreme Court? Do you really believe that we can wait three months? What's happening in three months? It seems to me that there's an election coming up in August. At the political level, are people saying that this matter will be settled after the election? Was Mr. Karzaï trying to garner votes from the Shiites? Naturally, I don't believe in this conspiracy theory, it's just my inner voice talking.

First, do you think that the government wanted to adopt a measure that was popular with the Shiites in order to win votes? Second, do you believe that the civilian SAT was not at all aware of this law? Third, when you say that this will be reviewed in three months, isn't this just a way to delay it until after the election, once the dust has settled?

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you.

I will answer the first part and let Mr. Wallace talk to you about the GSO, the Governance Support Office, which replaced the SAT.

I would like to begin by saying that we are not boasting here about our accomplishments. The rights of Afghan women and citizens are extremely important. The work that we have undertaken is based on our willingness to help Afghans rebuild and acquire the capability to ensure a better future for their country.

We must also keep in mind that Afghanistan has been in a state of conflict for at least the last 30 years, so it is not just a question of repairing what's there but of having to start again from next to nothing. I agree, the legislation contains elements that are completely reprehensible. However, let us not forget that other laws have led to positive changes in Afghanistan.

I would compare the situation to a child who is learning to walk. He will fall down from time to time and probably get hurt, perhaps even break something. Should we admonish or punish him for that? The normal reaction would be to say to him that we will help him in order to avoid another similar mishap and to ensure that he acquires the skills he needs to walk. I do not think there is some kind of a conspiracy or deliberate attempt to mislead anyone.

President Karzaï has admitted publicly that he had not read the bill and had not received adequate information. He has admitted his mistake, and I do not think that we could ask more of him at this time.

In terms of delays, Afghans have said that a process was in place. A group has begun to review the process. How long does it take in our own legislatures to achieve results through such a process? We are talking about Afghanistan, and it will take some time. When all is said and done, I think that the Afghans will deliver the goods.

I will let Mr. Wallace talk to you about the GSO.

[Stephen Wallace]

Thank you.

The Governance Support Office now has 10 people on staff, including two who are directly handle legal matters: one at the Department of the Interior and the other at the Justice Department. That second person is an Islamic law expert who brings very sound technical expertise to the national process as a whole.

I think there were shortcomings in the process both in terms of content and of the revision and preparation of the Shi'a law. The people who should have taken part in the revision and scrutiny of the law were not involved in the process. That is why the law, which was brought to our attention in March, was quite a surprise.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Things will continue as if all is well. Mr. Karzaï has admitted his mistake, but he probably intended to sneak the bill in through the back door. If no one had taken notice, the 10% of Shi'a would have probably voted for him, which would have facilitated his re-election. It is very easy to apologize after having been caught; we've seen that quite often.

Where there is politics, there is partisanship. I do not think that the revision will be completed before the election on August 20. Such tactics have already been used here in Canada as well. You have not quelled my doubts.

You have your theory and I have mine. I will conclude with that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Bachand, you ended right on time.

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

I must say that I don't think anyone in this room can say more than another. This has been frustrating. It has made us angry and we've been very disappointed. All of us feel that way. However, I can advise Mr. Bachand that when we hear little voices in our ears, usually it is a symptom of believing in conspiracy.

I note, as you did, that the Prime Minister is in Afghanistan today. I think one of the most important messages that he has, that I read in any event, is that he is there to underline the evolution of our mission. I think one of the areas, in strengthening women's capacities as economic actors in particular, is through providing them with financial services.

As most of us know, the efforts led by 2006 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Professor Muhammad Yunus, when he founded the Grameen Bank, have had a tremendous impact on the poorest segments of society, especially women. The bank has significantly expanded and still provides small loans to the rural poor.

Its success has inspired similar projects in more than 40 countries around the world, and as we all know, CIDA has been one of the key players internationally in recognizing the success of the Microfinance Investment Support Facility, which has reached more than 440,000 clients in Afghanistan.

I noted that you were using the number of 220,000 women. I have the number here of 440,000 clients in Afghanistan. I understand that the MISFA has grown from five to approximately 15 microfinance institutions and is providing poor Afghans, two-thirds of them women, with access to loans and financial services that would otherwise be unavailable to them. I note the industrious nature of most women, probably, but particularly the women in Afghanistan.

I wonder if you could expand on exactly what's happening there, because I think that's some really, really good news.

[Stephen Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Let me clear up the figures part right away. It has been an extraordinary program, this Microfinance Investment Support Facility. It has won international awards. In a very, very tough country, it has gone very far very quickly and it has done very, very well.

The 440,000 clients are men and women countrywide. But because there is such a strong component of women, the figure I used was 290,000 women within that figure of 440,000 overall. That's to give a sense of proportion on that one.

I think you're underlining a point that seems to have emerged in an important way in the country; that is, one of the most effective ways that we've found to help support the equality of women is to be able to strengthen their economic position. So when we see the access and control over productive assets and we see the effects this has on the well-being of women, the well-being of families, the well-being of communities, on decision-making power within households, we see some very interesting and positive benefits. We also see opportunities and choices for women, who very often are now heads of households. In a context like Afghanistan, there are many situations where women are widows as a result of that country being torn apart by war.

We have microfinance programs that very often provide $50 or $100 loans that simply give women a hand up, allow them to have a measure of economic activity and economic autonomy, and I have to say that the repayment on these loans is well above 95%. It's an extraordinarily successful program, and what we see as a result is that there is impact. It enables women to leave home. It enables women to discuss among themselves what's going on. They're freer and they're more open in the way they go about their business.

I think the reference you made to Muhammad Yunus and his Nobel prize-winning Grameen Bank is very interesting in the Afghan context, because they're one of our close partners. They established operations in the country in 2003 and they've worked across the country now, both in education and in microfinance, and they've had a very strong support and focus on female clientele. You'll see that 86% of their clients, for example, are women.

I think the legacy of Muhammad Yunus is actually showing up in a very positive way in Afghanistan, and the impact on the situation of women has been immeasurable.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I think too, as a general editorial statement, due to the fact that we are there, the fact that our country and our people and our families have paid with the blood of Canadians and we are there, we have bought the right to say, with respect to the laws, “This isn't right.” The short-sighted reaction that I've had from a few of my own constituents, “Oh, look what they're doing. Let's pull out”, is exactly the wrong thing to do, because we've already paid the price. As a consequence of our paying that price, we are now in a position to have great moral suasion, great persuasion, with respect to this, compounding the fact that we are also in a position of strengthening women in very real and practical day-to-day ways in their own lives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Kerr, do you want to throw in a quick one?

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Yes, thank you very much.

We don't have much time, but we noted today that Chris Alexander is heading back to Canada after six years there. I understand he is well respected and certainly very involved.

On his point about the fact that we're all on board about the incident in this particular law, he wants to point out the fact that many laws have been passed that are very, very successful. It always is a warning to us to be vigilant. Let's not panic over something that was wrong. The country is growing; it's learning.

Would you care to comment on his vision? I notice he's speaking in Ottawa tonight, as a matter of fact. Could you comment on his vision about looking at the overall legislative gains that have been made as compared to one bad mistake that obviously took place?

[Yves Brodeur]

Yes, I'll just repeat what I said in French a few minutes ago.

That's a very valid point. What Mr. Alexander was actually underlining is the fact that yes, in this nascent democracy, which is still really trying to get its act together, there will be mistakes made, and this is obviously one, and a very serious one, for that matter. But there are other laws being passed. This government is working and its institutions are also working, so he was actually pointing at over 50 laws that have been passed without any real problems of the sort we are faced with here.

Here are just a few other facts as well. Afghanistan has adopted a new constitution. It has held an election. It established 102 political parties in the country. It has created, with the help of Canada, an Independent Human Rights Commission that's doing excellent work and that we support. And it is actually taking steps to make the civil society in Afghanistan a real player in the game and to flourish. So those are gains. They're really important and I don't think we can just ignore that.

Perhaps also one point I wanted to make here--

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Make it quick, then.

[Yves Brodeur]

Debate. There's a debate now on the Shia law in Afghanistan, something you wouldn't have seen three or four years ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Just before we go over to the NDP, I want to recall some testimony we had at another committee from some Afghan women on the issue of 95% repayment on these loans. They assured us that the 5% that wasn't being repaid had been all taken out by men.

We'll go to the NDP.