Evidence of meeting #17 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Gentlemen, thanks for being here today and for sharing your views with us. Thanks for your concern for peace and democracy, human rights, and women's rights in Afghanistan.
Before I ask you a question, I want to just correct the record. I believe that earlier, Mr. Dewar suggested an amount the government has proposed for Canadian support for civilian projects going forward in Afghanistan. My understanding is that it's approximately $300 million per year for all of Afghanistan.
4:20 p.m.
An hon. member
He said $100 million.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
That's just in Kandahar.
My understanding, and Mr. Dewar can check it, is that what we're proposing is approximately $300 million for all of Afghanistan.
Mr. Siebert, you mentioned a number of things in your remarks.
If we take the Canadian troops out of the field in Kandahar, as the government has proposed, and we don't train the Afghan army to replace them, who will protect all the Canadian civilian aid workers you suggest we should continue to have there and will continue to have there?
4:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Project Ploughshares, Canadian Council of Churches
The delivery of humanitarian and development aid in most parts of the world is done on the basis of neutrality and delivery of aid to all comers, regardless of various categories: religion, ethnic, and what have you. Properly done, the security of NGOs delivering aid comes from the confidence built among the people who exist in that society.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Let me ask you a question. Do you have the confidence that today, in Kandahar region, western NGO aid workers would have that security without a replacement of the Canadian Forces and without an Afghan army that's properly trained to do what the Canadian troops are doing there today? Do you think they would be safe today?
4:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Project Ploughshares, Canadian Council of Churches
I think it would be extremely difficult. I take your point. But there were Canadian and other aid agencies delivering aid during the Taliban period. In effect, they negotiated with the Taliban for access and security.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Some of them have been kidnapped and some of them have been killed.
4:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Project Ploughshares, Canadian Council of Churches
It is a dangerous operation. Along with Canadian Forces and other militaries, Canadian aid and other aid workers have also suffered losses that are substantial and horrific.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
How can we be assured that the gains made, with considerable Canadian investment, effort, and funding, with respect to girls in schools, women's rights, and women's participation in government, will remain if the Afghan army cannot sustain the same level of peace and security that ISAF is maintaining today?
4:25 p.m.
Vice-Chair, Commission on Justice and Peace, Canadian Council of Churches
That's where a level of local engagement in security solutions is critical. Security is a comprehensive basket that certainly includes the participation of security forces but also good governance delivery at that local level. It's a chicken and egg scenario in certain cases. Nevertheless, having that foundation of security at the local level, in terms of governance and competent delivery, is indeed a significant element.
All that said, the presence of international forces and the ANSF in Kandahar could well facilitate security for aid delivery, certainly keeping John's concerns about aid neutrality in mind.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
So do you believe the ANSF is at a level capable of doing that today, or do they need further training and assistance?
4:25 p.m.
Vice-Chair, Commission on Justice and Peace, Canadian Council of Churches
I can't evaluate that.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay.
I understand that when CARE Canada was here, they made a good case for the continuation of training of the police forces in Afghanistan to ensure that women are not abused and to secure the gains that have been made in terms of women's rights. What do you say to CARE Canada on that point?
4:25 p.m.
Vice-Chair, Commission on Justice and Peace, Canadian Council of Churches
Again, security is an augment of this full factor that we're talking about. We're concerned, again, with a full balance of a mission. Security forces are one element of that. But concentrating, again, at the local governance level all the way up the chain, where civil society is fully engaged, can contribute to that, both the micro- and the macro-level solutions that we're envisioning, including the incremental protection of women's rights.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay.
I believe Mr. Siebert had said that Canada should advance a “diplomacy surge”, I think was the term, on a financial scale equal to our current military investment.
What do you think is required over what period of time?
4:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Project Ploughshares, Canadian Council of Churches
A significant contribution and focus.
You know, I will certainly grant that the nature of the engagement of the military requires a certain amount of equipment and training and those things. Military options are always expensive. The good news is diplomatic options, compared to them, are relatively inexpensive.
And if I could just drop that “financial” but say—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Project Ploughshares, Canadian Council of Churches
I did, but if the same political energy were given to diplomacy and in trying to seek a way—political support from the Prime Minister on down—to Canada contributing to a diplomatic resolution, if that happened, and my ideal world came to be, we're still talking about many years of engagement.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Okay.
Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Mr. Hogeterp and Mr. Siebert, we appreciate the presentation you've given to us and all the commentary. Thank you very much.
We're going to suspend for a minute while we go—
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Chair, just a point of order, because I think there was a challenge on my numbers, and before they leave—
4:30 p.m.
NDP
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
I've already adjourned the first part of the meeting and we're now in camera.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Just because there was a challenge to my numbers, Chair, I think it's important—