Afghanistan Committee on March 31st, 2010

[Cory Anderson]

I would question the NDS on a weekly basis regarding some of their practices, some of the things I felt we could assist them with in professionalizing their personnel. We have a very robust civilian police contingent at the PRT that was willing to work with them on different types of interview tactics and other ways to act more professionally.

The NDS did not show much interest--often no interest--in developing any more of a substantive relationship with us, as civilians at the PRT, than what was required under the letter of our arrangement, which was to allow us access to the individuals they had who had been transferred over by the Canadian Forces.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Did you come to the conclusion that for the good of the mission, detainees should no longer be transferred to the NDS but somewhere else instead? Did you discuss it with anyone in the military hierarchy?

[Cory Anderson]

I and others have raised with a number of different officials over the years the possibility of having other partners, in terms of who ultimately houses Canadian-transfered detainees. I do not report to the military. I have my own chain of command. We made it very clear during my time on the ground in Kandahar, but also during my time at headquarters, where I worked for the Afghanistan Task Force at Foreign Affairs, that the difficult challenge we faced on this issue was a lack of partners in order to transfer them over. There was also the fact that the precedent had been set through the original arrangement, and also via our allies, as the NDS as our partner, and the fact that the NDS ultimately is going to have their opportunity to interrogate, regardless of where the first point of contact originates in terms of our own transfer. They're ultimately the intelligence service in Afghanistan.

In hindsight, I wish I had been perhaps a bit more vociferous in terms of trying to come up with alternatives, given the knowledge that we had about the NDS as an institution. There were certain different alternatives on the table at various times--an ISAF facility that came and went that some of our allies in the south were interested in pursuing. I think we probably could have tried a bit harder back in 2006-07 to see if there was any capacity within the Afghan National Army to be that first point of contact. They are the most legitimate and well-respected aspect of the Afghan security apparatus. We could have done more there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Mr. Obhrai, please, seven minutes.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Mr. Anderson for coming and giving us his perspective, specifically the main perspective, because he is a very key player in coming out and working with the new enhanced agreement he's talking about. This was because the previous agreement, done in 2005 by the previous government--as you rightly pointed out--had a lot of flaws that created a lot of concerns with you, your officials, the department officials, and every one of the Canadians out there.

Well, let me just first go back and say that we are here in a theatre of war. We are not in a peaceful environment; we are in a theatre of war. So I want to commend you. I want to commend the people who have worked hard to ensure that humanitarian law and everything else that Canada is known for is done. You went there and recognized the deficiencies of the 2005 agreement. You diligently worked on that, so let me say to you this. After the 2007 agreement that you and the officials worked very hard on, are you satisfied that the overall situation, the work that you and the people of the department did, met Canada's international obligations?

[Cory Anderson]

I think we did as much as we could, given the context. With the benefit of hindsight, we could have spent more time coming up with an alternative to the NDS as such a substantive partner for us on the ground in Kandahar.

I think the 2007 arrangement would be recognized across the board by most officials as a vast improvement over the original transfer arrangement. The inherent challenge with the 2007 arrangement is not unlike the inherent challenge with the 2005 arrangement, though. That is, it doesn't change the partnership we have with the people on the ground in Kandahar whom we are bound to work with in the NDS, and we certainly had better insight into what was happening to the people we transferred. I do believe that had a tangible effect on their well-being, because we were able to get in, to interview them, and ensure that there was a level of transparency, at least with the people we handed over. But it doesn't change the inherent behaviour and organizational structure of the NDS itself. It's still guarded and shielded behind a wall of secrecy that I think should give us pause.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Let me just ask this question. While you are saying the NDS, in your view, is an organization that requires a lot of improvement, Canada will continue making those improvements in training and teaching there, but there's a lot of ground still to cover on that aspect, as you rightly pointed out. You and your colleagues--David Mulroney, with whom you worked, and Scott Proudfoot--have indicated that 2007 was a remarkable vast improvement regarding the transfer of detainees. They indicated this, and I want you to think about it and make a statement. They were not made aware of any first-hand allegations of torture. Would you agree with that, as you were on the ground?

[Cory Anderson]

Prior to the 2007 arrangement?

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

After 2007.

[Cory Anderson]

There were specific allegations of abuse after 2007. We uncovered them in October of that year and stopped transfers until February of 2008.

But my sense is the reason there were no specific allegations of abuse prior to May of 2007 is that we didn't have an instrument in place that would allow us the ability to find out, and we weren't doing any monitoring.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

That was the previous agreement, but then you improved this agreement and then everyone came out here. After 2007 and after torture had come in front of the committee, when the transfers were stopped, and then were resumed by all these things, the situations were returning to normal and there was no credible evidence of torture, and whatever there was, you guys investigated.

[Cory Anderson]

We demanded an investigation by the Afghans into the allegations we uncovered in the fall of 2007. They did that investigation. It obviously satisfied the senior officials here in Ottawa, in DFAIT and in the Canadian Forces. My understanding from where I sit is that at least it gave the Canadian Forces the confidence to resume transfers, or else they would not have resumed them.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Right. So you were confident in the work you did.

You were the one who contributed immensely to the Manley panel report, and specifically the six priorities over there. And you have seen the latest reports on the development aspect in meeting the six priorities of the government. What's your view on that now?

[Cory Anderson]

In the context of my service as special adviser to the Manley panel, the report recommended that Canada develop priorities and streamline our approach so we could be better equipped to deliver on certain specifics, as opposed to the broad approach that preceded the Manley report.

Following the recommendations and the Manley panel's delivery of the report to the Prime Minister and subsequently to Parliament, the government developed the six priorities and the three signature projects. They weren't recommendations from the panel itself; the panel just recommended priorities and signature projects, and then it was up to the bureaucracy and the government to develop what those priorities and signature projects would be.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

You must have read the last report that came out, just as a person who was on the ground, who was involved in a lot of these things. What do you feel? Are you satisfied with the development work that has been going on?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Obhrai.

Mr. Anderson, very quickly.

[Cory Anderson]

I am satisfied to the extent that I think it's as much as we can expect, given the security conditions on the ground.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you to our guest for appearing.

One of the things I think we've all been taken with is the fact that we've had people who have said they had concerns about the way the transfers were being monitored. And I think you've outlined clearly that there was a concern. We heard this when we had the generals in front of the committee, that the military's position was that once the detainees were handed over, their responsibility ended there. Is that your belief as well?

[Cory Anderson]

Yes, other than providing civilian officials with the transportation necessary to get to the NDS facility and back during the course of those monitoring visits.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

So when the detainees were handed over before, at least before 2007--and I'll talk about after 2007, after the change in the agreement--it was handing over detainees and then it was very difficult to monitor. The military's position was that they didn't have any role in that.

And when we talked to people from DFAIT who were responsible for working with the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, they had a real problem--and Mr. Mulroney had to deal with this--in terms of knowing how many were transferred, where they were, or what the conditions were. So it would be nearly impossible to know if anyone was mistreated or abused. Is that the case?

[Cory Anderson]

I agree. In 2007 we had a terrible time trying to track down all the individuals who had been transferred prior to that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay.

After the agreement, we were still handing over detainees to NDS facilities, correct?

[Cory Anderson]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

And we still are, correct?