Agriculture Committee on May 12th, 2010

[Patricia Bishop]

Well, I certainly think we have what is close to a monopoly right now with the grocery store chains. We need to work at building some kind of incentive for them, whether it's through some kind of tax...I don't know, but an incentive where the more they're able to purchase local, then there'd be an incentive from a tax perspective... I'm not sure how that would work.

It would possibly give local farmers the opportunity to set more of their prices, which would mean they would get more back, because there is only so much the public will actually pay for a product. So the grocery stores would hopefully, possibly, have it come back. Certainly there is too much gouging going on.

If you go to an agricultural conference and you go to a Canadian produce marketing association conference, the calibre of them and the funds to be able to put both of those things on are very different. That is just completely unjust. It's just one very visible example of how things are really out of kilter.

The other thing is that we could be doing more cooperative approaches to the way we're getting food out to people—so working more with cooperatives and CSAs, but also with cooperative models of grocery stores and farmers' markets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

[Cammie Harbottle]

And having provincial and federal support for agricultural marketing co-ops would give buying power to farmers without gouging the profits.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Armstrong, five minutes.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I want to thank you all for your presentations today. I'll try to be brief, because we're here to listen to you.

I've heard we need to have stronger access to local markets, access to capital, support for supply management, and some way to either streamline programs and put more money into income for farmers or maybe have programs that better match Atlantic Canada's. One of my questions is going to focus on that.

From an Atlantic Canadian perspective, are the current federal programs more designed for larger farms and larger operations? And does that provide challenges for young farmers in the industry in Atlantic Canada because most of our farms are smaller in nature?

I'm going to start with that.

[Erica Versteeg]

What we've encountered is that most of the programs out there are more geared towards value-adding and not other things. Primary agriculture is missing from the picture.

[Cammie Harbottle]

I would also say, in terms of access to financing, a lot of the programs that I've come across do require higher initial capital and equity to put into the loan and are definitely geared for larger-scale farmers. You know, a $20,000 loan to me would actually make quite a big difference in the investment I can make in infrastructure. I would say a lot of new farmers don't have that equity. I think there could be big changes in those programs.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Great.

The other question I have is.... Peter, you mentioned--and I guess Malcolm also talked about it--there was this pecking away between when the product is produced and the product gets to the store. But you also mentioned that there is maybe a pecking away at the bureaucratic programs before the money gets through the bureaucracy and actually down to the farmer, where it was destined. Can you expand on that a bit?

[Peter Elderkin]

Well, I mean, every program is administered, and we have programs out there that, really, I don't feel they do a lot for us. When a program comes out with 50¢ dollars...50¢ dollars are only good to somebody who has the other 50¢.

Agriculture is in trouble. A lot of us do not have that 50¢, so we don't access the program. We need to get something in there and get it to the primary producers. If you have this 50¢ dollar, if you want to invest heavily in the business and it does question your profitability, then we need programs there to help that.

But if you have an investment... I like the concept of two programs: one, loan guarantees to allow access to it, and then let the farmers... We're very innovative people. We come up with things. As a matter of fact, we're too innovative. We're able to copy other farmers and we're probably the best industry... For example, if we see somebody making some money, we all jump in and screw the market up and overproduce. Look at blueberries and cranberries. Blueberries are just horrid now.

We need to do this. We have to realize that our marketing chain is costing us a lot of money now. When we look at this and at our food system, it's very important that you protect the primary producer. One thing we hear in our discussions on food is that we want to maintain the food supply. A lot of the arguments that are happening nowadays are aimed at protecting our choice of food. We can produce just about everything we need in this country to sustain our country, but people still want the choice. We have to get away from protecting the choice. We do not need to protect the grapefruit, the bananas, the star fruit, the stuff that's coming in. We do not need to protect that.

Supply management for all sectors would certainly be great. That would allow us, for all sectors, to import this.

We should look at Quebec and see what Quebec is doing, because they have a strong agricultural industry. I don't know exactly what they're doing. I've asked questions. I've never had the full answer. I'd love to see what the Quebec programs are. We should copy them.

[Patricia Bishop]

I would also like to add to that. When we're talking about the future of farming, I would really love to see the future of farming not look like a whole bunch of subsidies. That is not how I want to carry on into the future. I do not want to have to sit down and spend like four weeks of my year doing paperwork to get money from the government.

So as we move forward, I'd like for us to figure out a way we can get the profitability back through the marketplace, through a system that is respectable and sensible, and away from dependency on subsidies.

[Curtis Moxsom]

Scott, can I make a comment to this?

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Sorry, Curtis. Go ahead.

[Curtis Moxsom]

Scott, you said programs. I'm going to ask, what programs? Our CAIS, our NISTA, or whatever it's called, is four years behind after you pay into it. They change the wording on it every six months in different programs. You've got to be a Philadelphia lawyer to run around and find out. Since they closed it down, there's nobody in the institutions now to come out and advise you what programs are what. They came out with a $2 million provincial grant this spring for the beef farmer, and you've got to go apply for a loan in order to get the interest paid on that money.

It's like Peter said earlier, 50 cents is no good to you if you don't have the other 50 cents. A lot of them can't borrow this money. So there's $2 million sitting there, and from what I was told the other day, less than a third of it has been used.

So if they're going to police it this way, last summer, for example--and then I'm going to be quiet, Larry--you were allowed $10,000 a year for land improvement, tile draining, ponds, etc. I spoke to the representative on the 18th day of August and he said he'd be out to fill out my forms the first week of September, after I got married. On August 31 they closed the programs, with no notice. So here I was out $10,000.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Am I done?

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

If you have a closing remark, I'll allow it.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Between federal and provincial funding now for agriculture, is there enough money in the program, if we looked at how we could spend it differently? Would you all agree? Would there be agreement on that? Peter, you kind of alluded to that.

[Patricia Bishop]

No.

[Voices]

No.

[Peter Elderkin]

If it was spent well... I don't know the total numbers. We need to see the total numbers. But it would not be expensive to guarantee incomes for agriculture if we looked at all the programs and asked the farmers what to do. A lot of times when you look at panels, there are no farmers there.

[Curtis Moxsom]

Can I make a comment, Larry, to this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Yes or no.

[Curtis Moxsom]

I already said no, but I want to make a statement right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

If you're very brief.

[Curtis Moxsom]

I will be very brief.

From all the farmers I've talked to in the last five years, and I've talked to a lot of them, the Canadian government is going to sell all the farmers out. They don't care any more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Eyking, five minutes.