Agriculture Committee on May 9th, 2013

[Clinton Ekdahl]

I do understand that, and as far as I understand, there is a motion in play.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

The committee can certainly do something here in committee, but to do something in the House and to actually have a formal national day of the honeybee at a national level, that will take an individual MP advancing such a cause as part of their private member's bill when their opportunity comes up.

[Clinton Ekdahl]

I understand that the federal government can also do it without—

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That's what I'm saying. I'm trying to dispel that myth.

The accepted protocol among all members of Parliament is that for a national day to be recognized nationally, a member of Parliament from whatever party has to say, “This is my private member's bill. I am moving forward with this private member's bill and I'm asking the House to debate it and to eventually vote on it.“ So there is a well-defined process and it's the private member's bill route that is used to put in place a national day.

[Clinton Ekdahl]

Okay.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It's not just the government saying that it wants it, and it is done. That's not the way Parliament works and as I said, there is a well-accepted protocol among all the different MPs and the different parties that this is the way it is done. An MP advances a specific private member's bill.

[Clinton Ekdahl]

Yes.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Anyway, let me just move on to one other thing.

We had some discussion here about what it is that is causing the loss of bees. I think I heard Rod say that there are many factors at play, and I think I heard you say that as well, Clinton, meaning that it's a complicated, complex matter in terms of what is causing bee losses. Although there might be many contributing factors, it doesn't necessarily.... It's very hard to pinpoint one and say that's the factor and if only we could resolve that factor we would not suffer significant bee loss any more.

We had the Grain Farmers of Ontario here yesterday. In the public, just given the media articles that have been written, it's possible for the public to ask why the farmers just don't use it. I think you might have said that, Davis, in your comments, that we should just ban it for now until we know more.

We were asking the grain farmers, first of all, if they have a vested interest in a healthy bee population and they said that absolutely, farmers care about bees, they need bees, and they want a healthy bee population. Then I asked the question: What would the impact be on farmers if there were a ban? He said that there would be a 10% crop loss that could, on the average farm for the average crop farmer, result in a $50,000 loss to that farmer.

I want to ask for your input on that because there is a very real impact, and that's why it has to be based on sound science. Ruth Ellen was perhaps making some negative comments about sound science. But if a decision is not made on sound science, what is it being made on?

If we just start guessing at it, it has a very real impact perhaps on bee farmers, on crop farmers, on stakeholders. So we can't just guess and say we think it's this and we're going to do it. Let the penalties be what they might be. No, it has to be based on sound science.

Rod, could I ask you to comment on that, please?

[Rod Scarlett]

I certainly agree on the sound science side, but I also sympathize with beekeepers who have lost bees as a result of pesticide poisonings.

I'm not a scientist, but there seems to be a difference between corn and canola. It could be a variation in regions or soils; I don't know. I'm not sure. I have not heard any expression of concern from beekeepers in western Canada on seed treatments. As I've tried to mention, the majority of the beekeepers and the bees are in western Canada.

That doesn't negate the fact that there seems to be an issue in Ontario and in Quebec. I'm not sure, and that's why we're working with the farmers and those farm organizations. As you say, the impact could be 10%. It could be we now go to foliar sprays in pre-emergence. We don't know what those sprays will be or what the impact on bees will be from those sprays. We'd better know what we're getting into when we develop these plans. That's one of the reasons we have been sitting down and working with CropLife and the farm organizations. It's to try to work out the best path forward that mitigates risk, that benefits beekeepers, and that does this all based on science.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Valeriote.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I too want to thank you all for coming. This is a really serious matter we're dealing with. As I said last Tuesday, I'm quite conflicted about it. We're trying to dig down and look at the best evidence available to us and also distinguish the fact that, candidly, some witnesses have their own interests and their own income at heart. We have to weigh that as well; there's no question.

I put to Maria Trainer from CropLife on Tuesday the possibility that this is a perfect storm, the coming together of the parasitic varroa mite, the viruses, bacteria, poor nutrition, genetics, weather, and pesticides. Given all of those factors coming together last year in this province, it particularly affected our beekeepers here, but it didn't out west, as you noted. It didn't in South America, apparently, where the same pesticides are being used. Everybody is perplexed.

Rod, you're from the Canadian Honey Council. I expect you speak for a number of organizations and a number of people. Could you tell us who you speak for in total? I want a sense, because there's another beekeeper over here on the other side, Davis, who's saying we should put a moratorium on it. I haven't heard you say, unequivocally, that we should put a moratorium on it. What I'm hearing you say is that, if we manage this, adopting best practices, we'll be able to hopefully get it under control, particularly with respect to the issue of pesticides.

Can you tell me who it is you speak for? Do you agree that there should not be a moratorium on it? If it is best practices, how do we ensure that all farmers are using best practices? When I spoke to a beekeeper from out west and asked him if he talks to the farmers nearby, he said not really. Are we talking to one another in Ontario? Are we gauging when we seed and warning our beekeepers that this is what's going to happen and when?

Can you talk about those things?

[Rod Scarlett]

The Canadian Honey Council is represented by every provincial beekeeping association. That's our membership. In my presentation, I hope I reiterated the fact that both Quebec and Ontario have indicated they want to ban neonicotinoids. That same resolution has not come from any other province.

In essence, what I'm saying is that internally there is debate within our organization among our members as to whether or not there should be a ban. As it stands right now, the majority of members don't believe that's the route to take. They believe the route we're taking now, as an organization, is the correct one.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

This question is for both you and Davis. Are you satisfied that farmers will undertake and properly deploy the recommended best practices to protect the bees in Ontario and Quebec? What will it take for them to do it?

Go ahead, Davis.

[Davis Bryans]

In the past weeks, farmers are getting ready to plant corn. They say to reduce your risk, you should maybe move your bees. So I go around, and I'm moving all these bees here and there. I stockpile them in another yard so they don't get.... The next day they plant corn right beside this yard. I'm saying, how do I get away from it? It's not a thing where you move. Farmers are calling us and saying, “What should we do?” They don't believe PMRA's recommendations.

They're asking us what they should do and we're saying, “Well, plant at night”. But they say “They want us to plant on a windy day”. Well, I don't know how you can do that because you can start with no wind at all and 10 minutes later, you have 20-mile-an-hour winds, and these guys are trying to plant 200 or 300 acres. I sympathize with them.

A lot of guys said, “We'd like to buy some seed, the same traits without the insecticide on them”. They can't even buy them. They asked the guys, and at first they said, “Yes, we'll give them to you”. Then all of a sudden, “No”. Bayer says, “We're not letting that get out”. They're paying a premium for all that seed. They're paying money that they don't even have to spend.

We have entomologists down in our area who say that treatment is needed in certain areas but not in every field. It's not necessary to be in every field. So yes, there are areas that probably have to have it, but to blanket everything? When you start using chemicals and you use them every year, what's the life of that damn chemical? We do IPM. We check to see if we have problems in our hives. The year before we got hit, we checked for mites, we checked for nosema, we had the tech transfer team come in and do sampling. We knew that we had low mites. We had no tracheal, and the nosema levels were low. All of a sudden the bees were gathering pollen and they're dying right in front of us. The samples came back, and they had clothianidin on them.

There is no doubt in my mind that it is neonics. There's just absolutely no doubt in my mind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here this morning, and I really appreciate the passionate testimony we're seeing here today.

You talked about best practices, Mr. Bryans, and I think you'll be glad to hear that there was a new introduction yesterday of new best practices, learning from the experiences of last year and the years before and building on that. That's something that I think is always in the farmer's interest, to learn from experiences in the past and to share that knowledge amongst themselves and move forward.

The national farm-level biosecurity standard was actually put together through partnerships with honeybee, bumblebee, and alfalfa leafcutter bees. So again taking the knowledge that they have today, learning from what they learned last year, Mr. Scarlett, can you give me some idea of how that came together and how you expect that's going to change things?

[Rod Scarlett]

Certainly.

The bee biosecurity standards were a three-year program working in conjunction with CFIA, ourselves, provincial apiarists, and general beekeepers. It's really a development of an overall best management practices plan to ensure risk mitigation for pests, pathogens, diseases, environmental impacts, pesticides—kind of the full range, as you mentioned. It's a tool for beekeepers to pick and choose those aspects of the plan that they can incorporate into their business to help mitigate those risks.

Just as an aside, I would like to congratulate and thank CFIA for the hard work they did on leading this project to its completion.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

So in that plan, of course, environmental factors will always be a condition in the wintering rates, for example, of bees, or even the amount of honey, for example, you'll collect throughout the year, depending on how dry, on what flowers are coming out, on how the crops are. Do you take changes in best practices depending on a wet year versus a dry year, or do you take those types of things into consideration when you look at developing these best practices?

[Rod Scarlett]

Certainly beekeepers will, just the same as crop producers will, on a dry year, do seeding differently. So it is dependent on late spring, early spring, what's flowering, what's not flowering.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

One thing that I did in my past life was have honeybees. I thought that was a good venture to get into, and I went back into farming and my son worked with me. We worked at it hard for two or three years and we enjoyed it. We never made any money, but we really enjoyed it and learned a lot. I've been stung more than once, that's for sure.

One of the other things I did was I was a chemical applicator. One thing I did when I was applying chemicals, especially pesticides, was to make sure I knew where the bee yards were and that I had a good relationship with the honey producers in the region I'd be spraying in, so that we looked at the best options for application times, for example. In some cases, some of the guys would even go through the process of maybe keeping the hives in during the morning, for example, or in the evenings, just to prevent that.

Do you have that type of program here in Ontario, Mr. Bryans? I know when I took my applicator's licence, there was a section in our applicator's course about recognizing where the apiaries are and working with the honeybee producers.

[Davis Bryans]

Are you talking about blocking the bees in for half a day?

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Not all the time; it depends. There were different management practices that they'd use. I'd leave that up to the owner of the apiary.

[Davis Bryans]

Yes.

I remember when they were first spraying Furadan, we used burlap, soaked it in water, and put it around the front. But what happened was that the hives overheated, so it killed the hives anyway.

The problem with this product is that it isn't a one-day shot. Once it's there, it's there for the whole season. It's going to keep affecting the bees. Our queens just don't last. Normal queens would last three to four years. If you can get six months out of a queen, you're lucky. On our first round this year, we had a 5% loss, and we thought, “Oh, this is pretty good, a 5% loss.” We got rid of most of the loss...like, we melted up the equipment that got hurt last fall.

We go back, though, and another 15% have no queens in them. They survive the winter, and the queens all of a sudden....

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I guess it comes back to environmental conditions, which also play in there.

We had a producer here on Monday who basically said that when he went through his hives, he had maybe 15% loss. When he came back through, it was a high number, I think around 33%—don't quote me on that—just because winter kept coming into the month of May.

Did you experience the same?

[Davis Bryans]

But there was nothing to impact, because the bees were inside the hive. They weren't working.

It doesn't matter how long the winter is as long as there's a food store for the bees to stay in there. The only thing you have to worry about is running out of food—and that you have a healthy queen. But all of a sudden the queens are not healthy.

I took some queens last year to an island, and got them mated on the island. The sperm viability in those queens off the island was 75%. All the other queens were 50%. That is 25% less sperm viability in the bees that are open-mated around the agricultural areas.

So there's something going on in the environment.