Agriculture Committee on May 9th, 2013

[Scott Kirby]

I'm not sure I can give you a lot of details on them because I'm working on the environmental side of things. I do have here a list of the products that are registered. The new registrations are: Mite Away Quick Strips, Permanone Multi-Purpose 10%, and Apivar. These are for a variety pests, including varroa mites, tracheal mites, small hive beetle. Hopefully, this will provide honeybee growers some additional tools in their tool box to control these pests.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Now, you and other researchers have indicated that last year was a perfect storm in terms of the weather conditions, the pests, and the use of the neonicotinoids on the corn seed, and that you're taking steps to address that, to try to mediate that.

First of all, I wondered what those steps were. Secondly, yes, last year was unusual, but it seems to me we're hearing more and more that we're going to get more and more unusual kinds of weather conditions. We have to be cognizant of what is happening in our environment. Could you explain the remediations so that I can understand how you hope to control or change the reality of that strange 2012 season?

[Scott Kirby]

I'd be happy to. The first area we've been working on with our stakeholders is the production of best management practices. Those have been communicated to stakeholders via our website, but we've also had a variety of people on the ground communicating with growers and beekeepers in terms of submitting that information.

The best management practices include things that we've already spoken of earlier in terms of getting in touch with beekeepers; finding out where the hives are; communicating with the beekeepers on when you're going to be applying the pesticide-treated corn; monitoring weather conditions and trying to apply when weather conditions are not conducive to high dust-off; properly maintaining your equipment; and properly disposing of leftover seed and seed bags. There's a series of these BMPs that are being communicated. The growing season is under way, so we're hoping to see very positive results from that.

With respect to your point about climate change and what might be down the road, that is certainly true. We're not counting specifically on these BMPs as the ultimate solution to the problem. We feel that the longer-term measures that we've been working on with equipment manufacturers as well as the pesticide companies are going to be what will ultimately provide the best protection to pollinators. These are things such as developing better seed coatings for the treated seed and low dust-off. Lubricants are being worked on—actually there's one field trial this year, I believe—as well as improvement to equipment in terms of things such as deflectors to prevent dust from travelling far afield.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

You talk about field trials and better seed coating. It makes me wonder about what is currently out there and what seems to have caused the problem in the past couple of years in regard to these treated seeds.

Was enough research or work done on the corn seeds that seem to be at the centre of this problem? Is it that the product was taken to market too quickly? What do you make of this situation that surfaced? Were we or the company too hasty?

[Scott Kirby]

Quite honestly, I don't feel competent to address that question in terms of the amount of research that was put into it by the companies. The information that is submitted to the agency—at least my part of the agency—is specific to environment-related effects.

I think you might want to talk to the companies, but my impression is that there is a large amount of R and D, millions and millions of dollars, going into researching these types of products, and I would assume that due diligence was followed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Miller, welcome back.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's good to be here.

Thanks, gentlemen.

It's quite obvious from our witnesses, and I'm aware of it in my riding—I am a farmer and I have had honeybee hives on a couple of my properties—that everything out there points to something, whether it's the seed coating or spray that's on corn. At the same time, we have a problem there, but is there actually science that points specifically to that?

You mentioned a number of things. Research is done, of course, by the chemical companies and what have you. What kind of peer review does Health Canada or somebody on behalf of Health Canada do to make sure all that research is valid? Is that research independent to a degree?

I'd like you talk a little bit more, if you could, about seed coating. Is it just about the product? Is it how they coat the seed? I'll let you answer those two, if you could.

[Scott Kirby]

With respect to the amount of research that's done to bring a product to market, it is very extensive. For instance within our environmental assessment directorate, an evaluator or a team of evaluators would be looking at literally hundreds of studies and tens of thousands of pages of data.

The registrants are required to provide not only summaries of the experiments or the research, but also all of the raw data. Then our scientists independently go through all that information and decide whether they agree with the conclusions of the manufacturers or not. If they don't, then we change the conclusions to suit what our scientists feel the science says.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Were there any changes in the testing or recommendations on this particular product that is suspected and used on corn?

[Scott Kirby]

Not specific to corn dust-off. That is an exposure pathway that, at the time these products were registered, was not on the radar globally.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Okay, but since it appears to be a problem, is there any research that has been done or is being done on that?

[Scott Kirby]

Not with respect to data that has been required by the PMRA per se, in terms of a registration. There is research being done by the chemical companies in terms of improving—

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Okay, I'll just rephrase this, then. There's obviously a problem. Everybody suspects what it might be. But again, we have to make sure it's scientifically proven—yes or no.

My question is this. With all the allegations.... I had some huge bee losses in my own riding, and mine wasn't the only one last year. Most of this happens right at planting time. So why wouldn't research be done, or started, to find out?

You can't just shut down the grains and oilseed industry, so we need to find a solution. If this product is doing it, we need to prove it one way or the other. To me, it seems that would ultimately be someone's job—whether or not it's yours—­but it's someone's responsibility to get at it and get it done.

[Scott Kirby]

We have been working extensively with the equipment manufacturers as well as the pesticide companies to move in that direction, in terms of developing better polymers to coat the seeds as well as lower dust-off lubricants. So that work is under way.

It's in everybody's best interest that we move fast on this, and that's being done. We're going to continue working with those stakeholders to make sure, because we feel those long-term solutions are ultimately what is going to lead to the most desirable outcome.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

If that research is ongoing, when can we expect...? There must be a timeline on it for when we'll see some of those findings.

[Scott Kirby]

That research is not part of a regulatory requirement that was put in place by the PMRA as a condition. These products are already registered.

What we are doing now is working with stakeholders to develop solutions to a problem. We've put in place the BMPs as a beginning solution, and then the long-term solution, in terms of the equipment and the better seed coatings.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you. I have to—

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Is that it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Yes, sorry.

Mr. Valeriote.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Flint and Mr. Kirby.

I have three questions.

Presumably you're in consultation, not just with farmers and beekeepers but with the provinces and their ministries of agriculture, I would think. I'm curious, as your investigation continues, would you have the authority, in consultation with the provinces, or would the provinces have the authority, to say, “Okay, based on Mr. Scarlett's testimony, we see that it's particularly a problem in Quebec and Ontario, so we're going to put a moratorium on it in Quebec and Ontario”? That's the first question. Could you get to that point without more evidence coming before us? It would have to come before you, you would talk to the provinces and presumably the ministers, and you would come to a conclusion about whether it's necessary or not.

Number two, is the evidence you look at and are the conclusions you come to based on the balance of probabilities that this is the cause, or is the threshold much higher, beyond a reasonable doubt, in other words? Do you have to come to that point where you say, “This is it, that's what's doing it, and there is going to be a moratorium”, or is it on the balance of probabilities and then you say, “Okay, better safe than sorry”? That's the second question.

Third, people keep talking about best practices. I heard from Davis Bryans that it doesn't seem that best practices are always practised. I wonder to what extent can you even regulate or police best practices. If you can't, it sounds to me like the problem is going to continue. You heard Davis Bryans. He said he spoke to one farmer on one side and it was managed properly, and then on the other side it wasn't managed properly.

Those are the three questions for you.

[Jason Flint, Director, Policy and Regulatory Affairs Division, Policy, Communications and Regulatory Affairs Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Health Canada]

To start with the first question, around the authorities, the Pest Control Products Act does have the authority to take action if there is a risk of harm or serious universal damage being caused by the products we have.

Yes, we could put restrictions on, particularly, the uses or even regional restrictions, saying that for Ontario or Quebec it could not be used in those provinces. The authority exists to do that if we believe there is a risk of that sort of damage. It can be done immediately, and it can go right up to full cancellation of the product if we believe action is warranted.

The work is ongoing right now to determine if there is a need for further action or not.

Do you want to talk about...?

[Scott Kirby]

I'll talk about probability.

With respect to the weight of evidence before taking action, if we're talking specifically to the bee incidents of 2012, our conclusion was that the treated seed dust contributed significantly to the bee losses. That is why we basically took immediate action. We determined there was an issue and we developed BMPs in collaboration with all of our stakeholders.

From that perspective, the threshold had been met in terms of being able to take regulatory action at that level. We feel that what's being put in place, in addition to the unusual circumstances in terms of weather last year, is going to be sufficient to mitigate future events. As I said, these long-term solutions will be what we're aiming for in terms of a lasting solution.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Is there a way to impose regulations and policing?

[Scott Kirby]

With respect to getting to the BMP question, BMPs are voluntary. These are not mandatory measures.

One of the reasons for that—and you've heard from other witnesses—is that not all BMPs can be applied at all times. There are a variety of situations, for instance, where the window to plant seed is very narrow and you're only able to have a day, let's say, to plant your field. You may not be able to implement all of the best management practices.

The idea of this is to have a suite of practices so that farmers can implement as many as practical in order to try to minimize risk to pollinators.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Do I have any more time?