Agriculture Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

You have fifteen seconds.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

That's okay.

I need to take my blood pressure pills.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Mr. Peschisolido, go ahead for six minutes.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Chair, thank you.

I'd like to thank Madam Bradley, Mr. Porteous, and Mr. Orb for presenting through teleconference.

I'll begin with Mr. Orb.

You outlined some of the issues involved with mental health, and some of the situations. Can you elaborate a little bit on what you view as the role of municipalities? Mental health challenges are a multi-faceted issue with the federal government, provincial government, and municipalities. Can you elaborate a little bit on what you believe municipalities can do to deal with this issue?

[Ray Orb]

I think that's a fair question. I mentioned that we have a lot of municipalities in a province like Saskatchewan, and those municipal council members are in direct contact with the rural people. I think we're lobbyists, in the sense that we're trying to lobby the provincial government, and in some respects the federal government, for more doctors and better emergency services in rural Saskatchewan. The trend is that the doctors and the assistants, those kinds of medical labs and emergency centres, are moving into the bigger centres. We don't have good access to those. A farmer suffering from mental health concerns has to travel further to a city centre. That puts more stress on the farm.

It's an ongoing challenge, and something we're trying to work on through the physician recruitment agency in Saskatchewan. It's really been a struggle.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

Madam Bradley, you talk about a lack of access to mental health help. How can we change that? Also, I noticed that in your presentation you were cut off a little bit. If you would like to elaborate on other issues as well, please feel free.

[Louise Bradley]

Thank you very much.

Lack of access to services is a huge problem among the farming community and anyone right across Canada but particularly those in rural settings.

The program I mentioned, called Roots of Hope, is something that.... Yes, it is important to have trained professionals, but in some of the smaller communities where we are seeing that program being rolled out right now, there's a thing called peer support work. Not everybody needs a highly paid clinician. There is a time and a place for that. But certainly having access to peer support....

We have to be more innovative. In a country the size of Canada, we can't build mental health clinics on every single corner.

I mentioned e-mental health. Those services can be accessed online or even by telephone if need be. It has seen great success in areas within Canada, as well as in other countries.

I mentioned Strongest Families, which has a huge program that can be accessed 24-7 at home. We know that cognitive behaviour therapy for anxiety and depression is not only as effective online as it is in person but sometimes even more so.

I think we have to rethink the way in which we are delivering services, in order to get these important programs to people, particularly when they are feeling suicidal.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

One theme we've heard at this committee over and over again—and I believe it was either Mr. Campbell or Mr. Currie who said we don't get the language of farmers—is that the mental health industry and everyone involved don't get it. How can we change that?

[Louise Bradley]

As I mentioned, I think looking at peer support is one way in which people are definitely speaking the same language. I mentioned we've also had a great deal of success with first responders. I think each group has its own language, if you will. The way we have modified mental health first aid for veterans, for first nations in northern communities, I think can be adapted to the agricultural community. The time, the effort and the money have to be put into developing it, but it can be done.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Porteous, I feel for what you went through. Could you help me and the committee understand this audit process? I'm assuming it's from Service Canada.

[Murray Porteous]

It's the integrity branch of Employment and Social Development Canada. It's the stopgap, if you will, for making sure that everything is done in compliance with regulations for hiring foreign workers.

I'm discussing my case, but as national labour chair I was also in contact on a regular basis with several other farmers experiencing exactly the same thing. When they found out I was coming to appear before this committee, they suggested I not do it because they know that the government holds all the cards and ESDC could take reprisals against me and my business for speaking out, and they wouldn't speak out.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

How do we change the deck so they don't have all the cards?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

You're out of time.

Thank you, Mr. Peschisolido.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor, you have six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Porteous, I'm very disturbed by the testimony we heard from you today. This is a study on mental health, but what you went through manifested itself in physical terms. I'm very sorry. I know you were nervous appearing before the committee today, but I hope you view this body as a committee of parliamentarians who are very interested in the subject, and I think we are all united in trying to find ways to make the system operate better.

In this case, we potentially have three ministries involved—Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship; ESDC; and Agriculture Canada. I've dealt with the federal government for many years now. Before I was a parliamentarian I worked for an MP as a caseworker. I have seen what happens to constituents when federal ministries are not doing their job properly. Often it's a problem of communication. They work in their individual silos. They are not aware of the holistic aspect of the problem. I'm worried this might be the case here.

If the government is causing this kind of stress for farmers, we need to fix the system. This committee needs to send a clear message to the minister.

We understand the problem. I don't want to dwell on that. I want to move forward to constructive solutions. With all your expertise, what recommendations can this committee make to the federal government to make the system better so we are looking after farm workers? Because that's a very valid concern, but we also want to make sure that farmers have access to that labour pool, and that they are not suffering from the same kind of stress you went through.

[Murray Porteous]

I can think of four cases offhand that are exactly the same as mine, involving the same timing and so on. When the investigations of all four of them were completed, they found absolutely nothing that any of the farmers had done wrong, but they had interrupted their businesses for four months in that process.

If there's not a major concern—and I don't believe there was in any of them because mine wasn't as a result of a complaint.... I was told by a senior official that it was the senior officials himself who registered the complaint against me, but I can't get that in writing because they are blocking the freedom of information request.

You need to have a system that doesn't assume you're guilty until you're proven innocent. If I were a rapist, I would have more rights than I do as an employer, because rapists are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. That's step one.

Step two is that you have to have somebody who understands agriculture making decisions about agriculture, because otherwise they don't know what they are talking about.

Step three is that you have to have a goal. If the goal in Canada is to grow the economy and grow agriculture as a major driver of the economy and grow employment.... Horticulture is a huge employer in agriculture. We can't get Canadians to do the number of jobs we need done. We need a reliable workforce, and the seasonal agricultural worker program works very well in filling that growing labour gap. If we're really serious about the sector, and if horticulture actually matters in Canada, it needs to be a priority. We have to have integrity in the system, yes, but don't destroy the system while people who don't know what they are doing are performing a check.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Ms. Bradley, you spoke about your experience with first responders, veterans and members of the armed forces. Those are certainly branches that have had their own challenges with stigma. Is there anything you've learned from how...? I've talked with first responders and their culture used to be very stoic, but now it's something they talk about. Are there learned lessons from how you made a breakthrough in those sectors that we can apply to agriculture?

[Louise Bradley]

Yes. I think each time we do an adaptation of two of our training programs, The Working Mind and Mental Health First Aid, we learn something we can pass on to the next one.

I think my biggest learning throughout all of this over the years has been with the issue of stigma. I'm not talking about stigma for farmers, although that is a very real thing. We have all kinds of evidence that if we made the right investment and created programs that could address the mental health of the agricultural community as well as elsewhere that they would work, but we're not paying attention to that evidence. It leads me to believe—and we are now starting to study it more at the commission—that there is the issue of what we are calling structural or institutional stigma.

There is all kinds of evidence to demonstrate that if we did the right thing, it would work. We simply aren't doing it. We have to reach a crisis, and I believe that we are in a crisis situation right across the country in terms of suicide. Our rates stayed the same for over a decade but are now climbing. Never mind all of the deaths by opioid overdose that aren't actually suicides. We are not doing anything nationally. It is happening piecemeal across the country to address this crisis situation.

Stigma on many different fronts has to be addressed. The answers are there. We simply are not putting the time, money and effort into developing the answers.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you. I will yield my remaining 10 seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Now we have Madame Nassif.

Ms. Nassif, you have six minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their presentations today.

My question is for Ms. Bradley.

In Canada, we do not currently have a mental health strategy for farmers. We know that farmers' mental health problems can lead to even more serious problems, and sometimes even to suicide.

We also know that depression in the general population, not just among farmers, costs Canada $32.7 billion per year. Problems with anxiety cost $17.3 billion per year.

Do you have similar data to share about farmers specifically?

[Louise Bradley]

I can't give you those exact figures off the top of my head. I don't know them. But we have that information, and I will be very happy to send it on to the committee.

We do have a national strategy for mental health. That was developed in 2012, and my fervent belief is that if we were able to implement the various components of that strategy, it would help all Canadians, including the agricultural community. That isn't to say that we don't need to put special efforts into the agricultural community. I think we do, in the same way we have with first responders. Access issues and the innovation required to provide mental health services apply equally in any rural community, in particular the agricultural community.

Does that answer your question?

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Yes.

What prevents farmers from asking for help for mental health problems, apart from the stigma and discrimination?

[Louise Bradley]

We simply don't have the programs. I mentioned one program called Strongest Families, out of Nova Scotia. It's being provided across the country in various sectors, yet there are huge communities that do not have access to it.

New Zealand does. It has a program for families—as one specific example—in which children are having difficulties. I can assure you that if there is stress and anxiety among parents and in their families, children feel it too. With this program they are able to access services in the privacy of their homes, so stigma isn't an issue, and they are able to do so at times that are convenient for them.

That is one example of a program that is not being provided right across the country, particularly in Ontario. It could do a great deal to help the plight of farmers with children who have difficulties.

Then there's the whole issue of e-mental health. That is another way, although I'm not aware of any program focusing simply on the agricultural community, but it could be developed. E-mental health is certainly a way of addressing that gap for people who work very long hours, as we've heard, and at very different hours.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Apart from the problems we know of, such as long working hours, the shortage of temporary foreign workers, fires that destroy crops, and weather conditions, are there other factors that can lead to mental health problems for farmers?

[Louise Bradley]

To be honest with you, I'm not aware of any studies focused on what factors are creating this. I can tell you that isolation and poor or non-existent access to services deeply impact other populations, particularly in rural communities, and as far as the huge stigma goes, I cannot overemphasize the impact that has both with regard to governments providing services and in rural communities themselves.

One of the components of Roots of Hope I talked about is a training program within communities, plus a campaign. It allows people to talk and hear about mental health issues within the context of their own communities.