Agriculture Committee on April 27th, 2021

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

When you say that at this point in time there aren't other options, that's why this bill is important. There really is, for bigger farms, no other option than to use natural gas or propane in grain dryers. That's why this exemption for a big farm is so important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

That's the end of your time. I'm sorry about that. We'll have to move to the next person.

Mrs. Bessette, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think my time is more like five minutes. I thank you for giving me six, but I will take five.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

You're right.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I will first ask a question of Mr. Ammeter from the Canadian Canola Growers Association.

You indicated to my colleague Mr. Drouin that you would be willing to work collaboratively with the government to share the costs associated with developing green technologies.

What is your reaction to the spending announced in the budget? I'm thinking, for example, of the additional $200 million invested in the agricultural climate solutions program.

[Mike Ammeter]

I think the initial reaction would be to say we would welcome assistance. Some of these things are very difficult to do on your own and the costs are prohibitive. Unless it's something that really ties my hands or alters my operation to where it's like, “I'd like to participate but this takes me in a direction where I don't know if I can accomplish....” That's always a challenge in any kind of a partnership. On the face of it, I don't see why we would be against anything of that nature.

If I could go back, there was a question addressed to me a little earlier, a very similar question, about government assistance in retrofitting grain dryers or making them more efficient. There are undoubtedly some who could participate in that today. Offhand, don't ask me to find someone for you, but I'm sure they're out there. We're always looking for efficiencies.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Do you believe that with the exemption there will always be an incentive to innovate or use greener equipment?

[Mike Ammeter]

Energy efficiency is something we look for. We look for efficiencies all the time. If it adds to our bottom line, we will look for that.

I've made a comment to people that.... I'm a little bit off-base here, but my combine is a very large piece of equipment and it has a big diesel engine in it. I said that I'd like to live long enough to see if we can come up with an alternative to a big diesel-powered engine. I'm not against that, but it has to be efficient. It has to be robust. It has to do the job. I'm sure, given enough time, we can figure that out. I don't see anything on the horizon, but I guess that's just my nature. I would be very interested to see if we could accomplish that because we need a lot of horsepower. It takes an awful lot of power.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you. I have one more question for you.

Should the exemption be temporary instead, while new solutions are found?

[Mike Ammeter]

Let's put it this way. If we find a solution and we move away from carbon-based fuels, then there's no need for an exemption. Does that answer your question?

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Mr. Kelly, my next question is for you.

How do you see the future of the transition to green fuels? How many years are we talking about, approximately?

[Dan Kelly]

That's an interesting question. I see that it will go in stages, depending on where technology goes. I think electrification may ultimately be where we end up, but it's going to take a long time to develop a technology that will allow us not only to generate the power cleanly but also to store the power and be able to use it in various forms.

The Propane Association can offer some solutions today. That's our story. We can help today to move away from high-carbon fuels like gasoline and diesel and towards cleaner alternatives. Propane is inexpensive and abundant, and there are a lot of things we can do with it.

I think we could be looking at an extended period but there are transitions along that timeline. We can hit some milestones that will certainly move us in the right direction.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mrs. Bessette.

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kelly, it has been made clear that you consider having a clean fuel that is part of the solution. What would be the impact on your industry if Bill C-206 is not passed?

[Dan Kelly]

I think the impact for our industry is not as significant as the impact it's going to have for farmers. I believe you have a clean, abundant fuel that is not being treated in the same manner as higher carbon-intensive fuels. I think that can't be lost in the discussion.

I believe we need to broaden the discussion on what propane can offer. Propane can do a great deal to help support the transition to that green environment. There are a lot of things we can do today. There are a lot of things we can do five years from now. We're not going to find the electrification solution tomorrow, but we're going to find it in the future and there's a transition that we can follow that leads us to that place. There's a great deal that propane can offer that will help us get to that place.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

That's the response I was expecting. So as I understand it, as an energy distributor, you will be charging your customers for the carbon tax that you have to pay.

Mr. Ammeter, how will your business or industry be impacted if Bill C-206 does not pass?

[Mike Ammeter]

If we are expected to absorb our share of the carbon tax that's put on to our grain drying and our irrigation pumps, ultimately, I have less money. The only place I get my money is from the crops that I sell, so if one of my priorities is to do upgrades on my grain-drying equipment, I have less money to do that. That means it probably will delay it. As the carbon tax goes up, it just exacerbates it.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Should we fear the disappearance of certain productions, or smaller producers, if Bill C-206 is not passed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Answer quickly, Mr. Ammeter.

[Mike Ammeter]

It would make it tougher on them. Smaller producers don't have as much capacity to absorb any hits of that nature. It's probably tougher on them than the larger ones.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Ammeter.

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Now we have Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Ammeter, we've referred to the harvest from hell and we know that, with our farmers being on the front lines of climate change, there will be an increase in extreme weather events. If you look at the last several decades, and when farmers have had to start engaging their grain dryers, has the trend been more and more use of grain dryers over time? Do you expect that trend to continue going into the future?

I'm just trying to put this in the context of whether you're having to engage your grain dryers sooner than you'd like for longer than you would like. I'm just trying to extrapolate what the cost will be if we continue with this trend.

[Mike Ammeter]

I don't know if I could comment on the costs per se. It's such a variable.

I've mentioned before that one of the things we do see in agriculture as well is weather cycles. We've had, I'd say, 10 to 15 tough years and it's quite possible that could turn around.

I know one of the things that we were told when I first heard of climate change, global warming, what was kind of posed for us on the Prairies.... Where I live, I'm actually very close to the Rocky Mountains. I'm high elevation. I'm 3,300 feet. It doesn't sound good by today's narrative, but that is good news for me if the climate warms a bit because I'm always struggling with a short growing season.

As far as using more and more grain dryers, I think people have them because they need to and they just recognize the value of them. The worst place to be is in the middle of a bad harvest and you aren't prepared with a grain dryer. You are very vulnerable. It can mean huge losses for your production.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

It would trigger our business risk management program, which would end up costing the government even more in the long run as well.