Agriculture Committee on May 4th, 2021

[Serge Buy]

Absolutely. I'm glad that you asked the question.

In the 1980s and 1990s, we saw the destruction of all the extension services in which people helped farmers better understand the situation and learn about technologies, advancements and resources. Well, the services weren't entirely destroyed. These types of services still exist to some extent in certain provinces. However, their scope has definitely been limited. I think that this is a big mistake.

If you want farmers to better adopt new technologies, you must reinvest in making sure that people can explain these technologies to them and guide them through the process.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

One of my colleagues asked the previous witnesses a question earlier. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it, to wrap up.

Do you know how other countries are transitioning to greener farm fuels? What does innovation in this sector look like around the world?

[Serge Buy]

Another good question.

It depends on the country. In France and Germany, for example, many things are done to help producers make the transition. In particular, there's a great deal of funding for producers. This isn't the case in Canada. We aren't at the same level. In those countries, given the subsidies that they receive, farmers can afford to adopt these extremely expensive technologies. Most farmers couldn't afford to do so otherwise.

However, our environmental concerns may not be shared by other countries, such as Russia or Brazil, which still compete with us. Our farmers, if they want to sell their grain, must be able to compete with these types of countries.

That's why I'm saying that we must really pay attention to our actions. As the saying goes, it's better not to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

That's it for me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Ms. Bessette.

Mr. Perron now has the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Buy, thank you for joining us today.

I want you to talk about these new greener solutions that you identified very quickly earlier, including the digester. You spoke of a 10-year period.

When you say that this is a modest estimate, does this mean that you think that we could develop these solutions earlier?

[Serge Buy]

No, it means the opposite. I think that it will take a little longer to implement some of these technologies.

Actually, it depends. If we're talking about the development of these technologies in the test phase [Technical difficulty—Editor]. However, to get them to a level where they can be rolled out across the country, I think that it will take more than 10 years.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

What type of federal support program could help you with these tests?

[Serge Buy]

As Ms. Bessette said earlier, some of the investments in the budget are partly a step in the right direction. However, I think more investment is needed, as is greater co-operation between government and the sector.

In my brief, you will notice I talk about how Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada's website depicts agriculture to the public. Many farmers, many of our members and I, personally, feel the tone of the website is offensive and attests to a lack of co-operation.

That kind of thing needs to change. In addition, more co-operation and greater investments are necessary. That will go a long way towards making things better. I am hopeful, but I think it's going to take some time.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

We, too, were pleased to see the proposed investments.

Doesn't $10 million for clean energy and $50 million for grain dryers seem—how shall I say—inadequate to you? Aren't those investments just a drop in the bucket?

[Serge Buy]

Were you going to say “paltry”? That's one of the words used—

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I wouldn't dare. Otherwise, I'd be accused of thinking money grows on trees. Be that as it may, there is money to be found in tax havens and the like.

All kidding aside, let's be constructive. Go ahead, Mr. Buy.

[Serge Buy]

If farmers ever figure out how to grow money, you and I probably won't be around to see it, Mr. Perron. For the time being, though, we can agree that money does not grow on trees, so it has to come from somewhere.

That said, Canada's investment has to match its ambition. The government wants to reduce greenhouse gas emissions—so be it. However, our counterparts in Europe are receiving a whole lot more in the way of funding than we are here, in Canada. That is the simple truth.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Yes, we often hear that other countries provide more support for agriculture than Canada does.

I want to come back to the program to develop and test technologies. What would that look like to you? Would it be pilot projects?

[Serge Buy]

Some pilot projects have already been initiated. Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec all have pilot projects under way. Radio-Canada actually did a great story on the subject recently.

It will take more than a pilot project or two to expand these kinds initiatives across the sector. It's going to take further research in various areas, commercialization and the ability to purchase basic equipment in order for the uptake of new technologies to spread across the country. It's going to take more than a few small pilot projects.

If you're asking me what it's going to take, my answer is this: a coordinated effort on the part of government and producing industries to find new technologies and invest heavily in those technologies, in related research and in implementation. It has to be a direct system-wide approach based on increased co-operation.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You talked about the need to invest heavily in research and development and to move quickly to advance those efforts. We agree on that.

When you answered a question from Ms. Bessette earlier, you said a permanent exemption was needed to support investment. If memory serves me correctly, one of the witnesses we heard from was Ms. Ross. She had a new dryer and told us that it was more efficient, so better for the environment.

Do you think farmers should still invest in improving their current dryers, or should they keep their money until new and better technologies emerge, say in seven or eight years?

Is it appropriate to focus on upgrading current dryers?

[Serge Buy]

That's a very good question. Since there are no viable alternative technologies [Technical difficulty—Editor], the research has to continue. Halting that progress would be a mistake, in my view. Yes, I think it's important to continue investing in the current technology, as research into other types of technology advances.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Doesn't it concern you that farmers who made those investments will have to wait 20-odd years before they can make further investments?

In the meantime, new technologies will be developed, but you think, overall, it still makes sense in terms of the environmental benefit. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Please answer quickly, Mr. Buy.

[Serge Buy]

It's a tough balance to strike. Right now, it would be a bad idea to halt either current investments or research progress.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, you now have six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being back before our committee, Mr. Buy. I appreciate hearing from you on all of this.

When your organization first saw the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act and you went through the definition part of the act, when you came to the qualifying farm fuel, it's quite obvious why gasoline and diesel are there. It's because there aren't any viable alternatives at present that can produce the amount of power needed to operate a modern farm.

Would you agree with that statement?

[Serge Buy]

Yes.

When the act first came into being, did your organization or farmers in general have any reaction when you didn't see propane and natural gas listed under the same “qualifying farm fuel” definition?

[Serge Buy]

We didn't. It was not a topic that was raised directly by us. Other farm groups had been involved, and we got involved when there was a discussion about research and innovation, where they stand and where we are on that, so we could provide you, as an example, a better understanding of the state of research and innovation.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes. I think the intention in putting a price on pollution is to incentivize a change in behaviour, but only if we have an option for people to migrate to. I think your comment about incentives being needed to encourage adoption rings very true for members of this committee.

I mean, if you look at zero-emission vehicles, a lot of people really only started buying them because, for example, here in British Columbia you got a combined $8,000 federal and provincial rebate for purchasing one. Of course, in the early days, the vehicles didn't have much range and they weren't as convenient, but now you're starting to get cars on the market that have a 400-kilometre or 500-kilometre range on a single charge. They can do all of the things that a gasoline car does, except maybe a trip right across the province. It takes some time, but eventually it will be like a snowball effect. It will build up enough pressure that it starts going on its own.

In terms of the new technologies that are coming out, what in your view seems to be the most promising? Are there a lot of companies involved in innovation in this field? Is there a lot of competition? Is there a lot of capital investment in trying to find out which one of these new technologies will actually become commercially viable?