Agriculture Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Bruce Taylor]

First of all, throw out waste diversion percentage, because waste diversion looks worse when you save food. At Campbell Soup, we avoided 1,000 tonnes a year of food waste. Their waste diversion number went down because they used to be diverting it, but it's still better to have it as food than as diverted waste.

We have the wrong metrics at the federal level, but also there are no programs in effect. Nobody's even talking about food waste prevention. We're all talking about organic waste management and how we destroy this food more efficiently, rather than how we keep it as food.

There are no programs; there is no support for anybody on how to go about doing it.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

We could start by providing financial support to those who take the initiative.

[Bruce Taylor]

That's correct. Yes, I would say a co-funded program, say like the one that's on the table for us right now. We would have gone into 150 facilities starting next month, but our application was just declined. We would have started next month, going to 150 factories and helping them reduce food waste. That could be co-funded so they also have skin in the game.

Do this opportunity assessment of what can be done and the business case for each thing you would change, so that when they get the report, they have the ideas and the business case for each of them. They are ready to go. Many of them are implemented before you even leave the factory.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Taylor.

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Now we have Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes.

You're up, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Taylor, I will continue with you. I know from discussions with several farmers in my riding that their electricity bills can be eye-wateringly huge.

Here in British Columbia, we're very lucky because, of course, more than 90% of our power is generated by hydroelectricity, but I'm looking outside at a beautiful, sunny day. All of this energy is raining down from this big glowing orb in the sky. Look at the price of solar panels, and how they have gone down and down. They are becoming more efficient. I know you talked about helping a grape grower. I look at all of that empty space on barn roofs that could be covered in solar panels.

For jurisdictions where they are relying on fossil fuels for electricity generation, is this something that is becoming increasingly viable for farmers to participate in? I know we have a variable climate. Our winters are not the greatest, but our summers are pretty amazing for power generation.

Is this something that we should also be pursuing? Should we be helping our farmers to get solar panels on their roofs and on their property?

[Bruce Taylor]

On the roofs I think I would agree with. Over the fields, you're losing agricultural output, so you would want to be careful with that.

Again, say for Southbrook, it was a seven-year payback for the panels, but it was a four-month payback to not use energy. You can cut a ribbon around a solar panel, but you can't see not using energy, so it doesn't have the same cachet or whatever.

That's where the biggest benefit for the farmer is, to reduce that demand. Then, all the electricity you're buying is turning into heat eventually. Are you paying to get rid of that heat from your cooling tower, or can you reuse that heat with a whole-systems approach? Don't improve one part of it; look at the whole system and improve that, and then look at renewables for what's left over. Don't start with renewables.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I know this is under provincial jurisdiction, but has it been a better model for them to feed back into the grid to get a credit, or do you see something better, like a battery storage for them to draw on when the sun isn't shining?

[Bruce Taylor]

I would say Southbrook is at net metering. He is doing it for policy reasons. Before that, there was a lucrative thing that brought down the cost of the solar. It really doesn't depend on how you do it, but I would really love to see something....

What about a program where you put panels in South Sudan or Uganda? There's twice as much daylight. You're going to have all these life impacts. Does it have to be on a roof?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Taylor.

Before we wrap up, I might slip in a question to Ms. Laing.

You mentioned in your opening statement that you're working to lower GHG in fertilizer. Are you talking about the product itself having lower GHG, or will it be the manufacturing of that product?

In other words, could I pick up a bag on the shelf from a certain brand that would be lower GHG? I'm sure there's slow-release fertilizer and all kinds, but could you tell us where you're working the hardest? Is it before, in the manufacturing, or is it in the usage?

[Candace Laing]

There are definitely two pieces there that you have picked up on. One is the innovation in products. That would be slow-release inhibitors, etc. I'll come back to that in a minute.

When I'm referencing low-carbon or carbon-free fertilizers, it's in the production context. We have a continuum. We start with carbon capture. That is step one. From there we could look at different production processes, but that will involve a rebuild of assets. It would begin with autothermal reforming, and we could then get into methane pyrolysis as another low-carbon method and explore that. UItimately, we are on a road map to green ammonia, which would give us access to renewables.

What's exciting is that whether you're in production or process, if we are using the carrot and not the stick, we are going to facilitate an agenda of innovation around decarbonizing agriculture. I think that's an important part of the picture, as are productivity, reductions and sequestering carbon in our soil.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Laing, for that. It was on my mind, and I wanted to get it clear.

With that, I'll thank the panel for a very interesting discussion. We could go on and on, I'm sure.

Mr. Taylor, from Enviro-Stewards, it's really great to have your statement on what you're doing. Also Ms. Laing, from Nutrien, thank you so much.

With that, we'll suspend for a few minutes to change the panel. We'll be right back.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

I call the meeting back to order.

I would like to welcome our second panel.

From Danone, we have Jean-Marc Bertrand, director of procurement, raw and packs, and Isabelle Rayle-Doiron, general secretary and general counsel.

Also with us is Jean-François Lévêque, co-owner of Jardins de l'écoumène.

Welcome. You will each have seven and a half minutes for your presentation.

We will start with the Danone representatives.

[Isabelle Rayle-Doiron, General Secretary and General Counsel, Danone Inc.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the invitation to appear before this committee.

As stated, my name is Isabelle Rayle-Doiron. I'm the general secretary and general counsel of Danone Canada. I'm here with my colleague Jean-Marc Bertrand, our procurement director.

Danone Canada is a business unit of Danone, a leading global food and beverage company providing essential dairy and plant-based products, water and specialized nutrition products.

Established in Canada in 1930 by the Delisle yogourt company, Danone is now one of the largest manufacturers of dairy and plant-based products in the country. We are proud to have offices in Boucherville, Quebec, and Mississauga, Ontario. Our mission is to provide healthy foods to as many people as possible.

We are Canada's largest consumer-facing B corporation, a certification that reflects our commitment to meeting the highest standards of social and environmental performance. We at Danone are committed to doing our part in the fight against climate change by implementing carbon-positive solutions and aiming to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050, from the farm level to the end of life of our packaging. Agriculture is at the heart of what we do. Danone supports the ability of farmers, as lead actors, to transition to environmentally friendly practices.

I will turn it over to my colleague Jean-Marc, director of procurement and lead of our regenerative agriculture initiatives in Canada. Jean-Marc will speak to our current efforts and share our views on ways the Government of Canada can help partner with industry to reduce the environmental impact of agriculture.

[Jean-Marc Bertrand, Director, Procurement, Raw and Packs, Danone Inc.]

Thank you, Isabelle.

Danone is no stranger to regenerative agriculture practices worldwide. We have defined our vision on regenerative agriculture around three principles: first, protecting soil, water and biodiversity; second, empowering a new generation of farmers; and third, respecting animal welfare. We have been inspired by the impressive work done by our Danone colleagues in other geographies, in partnership with their local farmers.

In the United States, Danone partnered with farmers to launch a soil health initiative. It includes an initial investment of $6 million for piloting soil health management of 100,000 acres by 2022. The goal is to restore the soil's ability to capture carbon and reduce overall GHG emissions across farm operations, such as in manure management and barn efficiencies. This study also serves to quantify and validate the return on investment resulting from the soil health initiative and transition to regenerative agricultural practices.

In Canada, there are limited opportunities to partner with farmers to promote regenerative agriculture practices in a way that drives returns for each partner. That being said, Danone Canada has put in place small-scale but promising regenerative agriculture projects.

Since 2019, Danone Canada has proudly partnered with the cooperative Nutrinor, based in Quebec's Lac Saint-Jean region. Together, we are exploring ways to improve soil health, animal welfare and producer independence.

As another example, a Danone brand, Silk, a leader in the plant-based product category, announced last year a partnership with the New Acre Project led by Alus Canada.

Silk's involvement will help support the management and restoration of 90 acres of farmland in seven communities in Alberta, Ontario and Quebec over the next seven years. New Acre Project will provide annual progress reports on key performance indicators such as overall biodiversity gain, water quality improvement, and soil organic carbon accumulated in the restored marginal lands.

These projects are an example that show Danone Canada's commitment to partnering with farmers and helping them improve their farming practices.

We believe the government has an important role to play on the following four topics.

First is tools and measurements. To promote regenerative agriculture practices in the country we need to start by measuring the environmental impact of current practices and create a clear baseline. Data collection will also be key to develop tools to measure the outcomes and provide positive impacts of using regenerative practices.

Second is education and technical assistance. To be successful, farmers will also require education, training and technical support to better align their own practices with principles of regenerative agriculture. The government can help support a multitude of farmers by partnering with companies like ours to engage more farms.

Third is financial incentives. To enable a wide-scale transition to regenerative agriculture, strong financial incentives are essential. Incentivizing farmers willing to transition to regenerative agriculture practices could be done by optimizing current programs focusing on the most impactful practices.

Lastly is coordination. We also believe in implementing a coordinated approach between government and all stakeholders, including food processors, to allow the private sector to collaborate and contribute to the effort of promoting regenerative agriculture practices in Canada.

In conclusion, we believe that accelerating the transition of more farms to regenerative agriculture practices will definitely help address several global challenges, from climate change to water scarcity and restoring biodiversity, while driving sustainable, inclusive economic growth.

At Danone we believe that the health of the people and the health of the planet are profoundly interconnected.

Thank you for giving us this opportunity to appear before the committee.

We would be pleased to answer any questions you may have, in French or in English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Bertrand and Ms. Rayle-Doiron.

We will now hear from Jean-François Lévêque, co-owner of Jardins de l'écoumène.

Please go ahead, Mr. Lévêque.

[Jean-François Lévêque, Part Owner, Jardins de l'écoumène]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the committee members, especially my member of Parliament, Yves Perron.

I am very glad that the committee invited me to participate in its study of best practices in agriculture. This is a special opportunity.

Jardins de l'écoumène has been in operation for some 20 years, in the same place we started, the Lanaudière region. We produce mainly seeds, organic heirloom varieties.

In the beginning, when we started the business, we were seen as an outlier. Many people wondered why we would want to get into organic farming and offer heirloom varieties. At the time, the fertilizer world was in full swing; the focus was on technology-based practices involving genetically modified organisms, or GMOs, and hybrids, which were highly sought after by the industry and many gardeners.

Today, the trend is different. Our business is booming. Over the past 20 years, we have watched our sales grow from a few thousand dollars to $2.5 million. We supply organic products to a gardener customer base. We are very proud of what we have accomplished in recent years.

Since the beginning, our company's focus has been twofold: a financial focus—which made it possible to grow the business—and an environmental focus. For us, the environment and ecology really means science, ecological science. As a result, we understand ecosystems, biotopes, niches and ecosystem services, which we work with to produce foodstuffs, or seeds, while always keeping ecosystem health in mind. We work with nature in order to understand how it works and learn practices that respect soil, water and biodiversity health. That is what we do.

When I heard about the committee's study, I smiled a bit. I figured you were expecting me to talk about practices to foster better conditions, both for human health and for soil and biodiversity health. Then, I instinctively thought that there was something about your study I was missing. Are any of the people here today looking for solutions? You already have the solution.

I say that because Canada established a national standard for organic farming. Our practices are based on it. You probably know a bit about how organic standard certification works.

In Quebec, an agency called Québec Vrai is responsible for certification. It's all done in advance in accordance with ISO standards, which require us to apply practices that keep soil and ecosystems healthy. We cannot use pesticides, chemicals or GMOs. Our production has to have the least possible environmental impact.

Today, I'm going to put myself in the shoes of a politician. I want to tell you what I would do if I were you, to ensure Canada had more environmentally responsible practices.

I was interested in what you had already. For the benefit of the committee members and analysts, I want to point out that information is available from the Canada Organic Trade Association. I'm not sure whether the committee will be hearing from association representatives, but it has done a great job of describing all the practices that have been standardized and those that are prohibited [Editor's Note: Technical difficulty—Editor]

For instance, we use practices such as crop rotation and companion planting. We also use compost and beneficial insects for pest control. We work with living soil. We have research and development partnerships with organizations such as Bio-Terre. Currently, we are involved in a three-year project to characterize soil microbiology. In organic farming, we have to make sure the soil food chain provides plants with the proper support.

A moment ago, I named a few products that were prohibited. Synthetic fertilizers, toxic pesticides, GMOs and sewage sludge are all prohibited, as is any product that prevents an ecosystem from functioning effectively.

If the committee members are interested, they can find more information on the Canada Organic Trade Association's website.

Another issue I'd like to bring to your attention is one that makes no sense to me. In order to obtain organic certification, we have to shell out $3,600 a year. That's ridiculous. I can't understand how small and medium-sized businesses can be made to pay a fee to show that they are taking care of the environment and following best practices. We make sure all of our practices comply with the appropriate standards. Every year, someone conducts verifications to make sure of it. It just makes no sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Lévêque.

Unfortunately, you're out of time. You may have a chance to provide more information during the question and answer portion.

Just before we move on, I'd like to welcome our colleagues Mr. Sheehan and Mr. Saini. They've been very well behaved in the first hour, and I'm sure they'll be here. Thanks for being here.

We'll go to our question round. The first round is Ms. Rood for six minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Rood.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for appearing here today.

I have just a quick question for Mr. Lévêque.

I'm just wondering if you could tell us approximately the size of the farm you're a part of. You had some interesting things to say, but I'm not sure of the scale of the size of your operation.

[Jean-François Lévêque]

We have three hectares. The bulk of our production is seeds. We supply mostly gardeners.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you so much.

I'm just going to switch gears over here. I have a couple of questions for Mr. Bertrand.

You were talking about regenerative agriculture, and I appreciate what you guys have been doing. I've had the pleasure of having a meeting with you folks before, to hear some of those good things.

Could you comment on whether you're just a food processor? Can you explain to us if you have growers under your umbrella, or how that works when you're working with producers as a processor as well?

[Jean-Marc Bertrand]

That's a great question.

We are not farmers, for sure. We are marketing products that meet our consumer demand, so we are processing everything that the farmers grow.

However, close to 60% of our total carbon footprint comes from agriculture. Because we have the goal to reduce 50% of our carbon footprint by 2030, and 60% of it comes from agriculture, guess what? We're getting close to these guys. We're trying to understand the reality and give them all the tools they need, and we work with them closely.

In the end, though, they are farming and we are not.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

That's great. Then I'm sure you can appreciate that most farmers operate their business with very narrow profit margins, and frequently things that farmers are asked to do to fit policy-makers' understanding of what is environmentally responsible just lead to more costs. In most instances, those costs can't be passed on or down the value chain, so they further narrow farmers' profit margins.

How does your understanding of regenerative agriculture affect farmers' profit margins? What are the financial incentives? Apart from government funding, are there financial incentives available?

I'll leave it at that.

[Jean-Marc Bertrand]

Yes, and this is key. If we want to continue marketing our great products, we need to make sure these farmers are still going to be around in the next year or in the next generations. That's absolutely essential, and it is key in our definition.

If you recall, the second bullet in our definition is the empowerment of farmers, but it's also to make sure they continue to make a living.

Right now, with the 100,000 acres we ran as a pilot, mostly in the U.S. and some in Canada, basically we helped them by paying for all the studies, to make sure we understood the baseline. We also made sure to run those models long enough to see the payback.

There is a payback. That's the great thing about this. However, to kick-start or to initiate these projects, there is a spend that needs to be taken care of. In the end, after three to four years, depending on the soil and the types of things you grow, for sure, the goal is to get a payback on these projects and a return on investment.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to turn to your work around bringing marginal lands under cultivation.

Have you found that the cost of bringing marginal lands into cultivation is outweighed by the yields and the value of what can be grown on regenerated lands?

[Jean-Marc Bertrand]

On the marginal lands, with Alus Canada, we used mostly buffer zones, the two or three to five metres close to the waterways. These could not be used to grow a cash crop. Really, that was the intention, but it still needs to be taken care of and it still has the potential to capture carbon.

It is too early right now to see the results in all the data, but we know that directionally it's going to act as growing regular cultures.