Agriculture Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Jean-François Lévêque]

Yes, that's precisely my message to you today.

Three years ago, on the news, I heard about something Denmark had done, and it really stuck with me. Denmark consulted its citizens via a referendum. People were asked how they wanted to eat, plain and simple. Denmark ended up incentivizing hospitals, day cares, early childhood education centres and other institutions to serve organic food, and the public at large to eat organic. I urge you to explore that avenue.

I was really impressed by the fact that a country went to the trouble of consulting its people and proceeded to develop standards and practices in support of the people's preference, organic farming. It's really something.

After a decade, the country achieved amazing things. It is my hope that a government like yours would do the same.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

One of the issues that seems to be emerging early on in our study is how difficult it is to take the necessary measurements from start to finish. Your farm has been exclusively organic for quite some time, but that isn't the case for all farmers. The purpose of our study is to improve the sector's overall performance, taking into account large-scale farms, mechanized operations, fertilizer use and so forth. The idea is to help those farms gradually reduce their environmental impact.

You talked about a three-year project to characterize soil microbiology. Can you tell us more about that?

[Jean-François Lévêque]

Over the past five years, we have introduced into our gardens a product called biochar, a vegetable carbon, whose main function is to sustain life.

Industrial agriculture uses numerous products whose name ends in “cide”, such as pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and miticides. The suffix “cide” comes from the Latin “cida”, which means to kill. So all chemical agricultural practices are aimed at killing living organisms in the soil. In organic agriculture, we work in the opposite way. The prefix “bio” comes from Greek, and it means life. So, in organic agriculture, we have understood that, to produce healthy and resilient plants, and healthy cultures and animals—this goes for both plants and animals—we must promote life. Our research project consists in developing techniques and measures to characterize soil life. We are working in partnership. We are two companies participating in this specific project.

The next agricultural revolution will inevitably go through microbiology. We had the era of chemical products and soil physics, but soil microbiology is the next agricultural revolution. We will be able to move away from products ending in “cide” to produce healthful food for human health using the soil.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

So this could apply to businesses of all sizes. When we talk about measuring environmental performance, we are talking about automating or digitizing data to create a database for comparison.

We are also talking about creating positive financial incentives to encourage green practices. Your point on the cost of $3,600 shows that there is some cynicism. The committee is taking note of that, you can count on me.

Beyond this, businesses of all sizes must be able to measure their environmental performance and improve it.

Is my time up, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Yes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

So we'll continue later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Perron and Mr. Lévêque.

Now we have Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for contributing to our committee's discussion on this topic.

I'll start with Danone.

I am very interested in the subject of regenerative agriculture. I was very curious about a question from my colleague, Ms. Rood, because she was asking you about the cost to farmers of engaging in regenerative agriculture.

Conventional farming has its costs as well. There is a very substantive report that came out from the National Farmers Union that shows that farm debt has doubled over the last 20 years and that 95% of revenues are going towards input costs, so there are costs everywhere you look.

I know regenerative agriculture attempts to bring harmony back to the soil, allowing plants to live in symbiosis with the soil food web that exists under there. Do you have any testimonials from farmers who have made the switch? Have they noticed the benefits of engaging in this practice in terms of yield, overall soil health and satisfaction with how everything is going, but also in economic terms as well?

[Jean-Marc Bertrand]

Yes. I'll start with the testimony.

I have many examples from the 34 farms that are part of the 100,000 acres in the United States. Closer to us, I've been able to meet with at least two Quebec growers who are into what we call in French “les grandes cultures”. I'm sorry; I am not sure exactly how to translate that, but it's corn, peas and soy.

It took these guys quite a while because they were self-reflecting about all this. In the end, they have 10% to 15% more output, and they have reduced their costs because they no longer use chemical fertilizers. They have not yet arrived at a fully organic product, as Mr. Lévêque just described, but they tend to be closer to this because these practices reduce energy.

You go less often into your fields with your tractor, so you generate less carbon, and you leave the soil to restore itself because the soil has everything it needs to do so. You never leave it bare. By adding cover crops, you capture more carbon, so you don't need the input.

In the end, they're winning on all fronts. They're winning on higher yields and lower costs. However, to characterize it with a real number depends on what you grow and where you are. That's why a testing measurement is required. Whatever we've found works great in Ohio we couldn't apply in Lac Saint-Jean, and whatever works well in Ohio doesn't work in Kansas. Unfortunately I do not have the silver bullet to solve everything today, but we know that the principles work. They just have to be adapted to each region and each type of plant you're growing.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I think that's language any farmer would understand—lower input costs, better yield, and better soil health—so any farmer will gravitate positively if you can show that.

I want to turn to Monsieur Lévêque about organic agriculture. I'm trying to find a way where conventional farmers and organic farmers can learn from one another, because we don't want to have the two solitudes. We want to be able to learn from one another.

I think there have often been questions about scalability and so on. I also think the research dollars that are going into organic agriculture lag far behind those that are going into conventional farming.

The University of British Columbia has an organic farming research program. Do you have any thoughts about more investments that might be needed in organic agriculture to, in fact, make the argument a bit better?

[Jean-François Lévêque]

Could the question be put to me in French please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Could you not hear the interpretation?

[Jean-François Lévêque]

No, I am not hearing the interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Can you check why Mr. Lévêque is not hearing the interpretation?

[The Clerk]

Mr. Lévêque, you should be able to select French interpretation on your screen.

[Jean-François Lévêque]

Great. I just turned it on. I'm sorry.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I can rephrase the question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Okay. We'll adjust your time, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Monsieur Lévêque, I'm trying to find a way for organic farmers and conventional farmers to have a dialogue and learn from one another. Often, questions in organic agriculture have been about its scalability, but if you look at the research dollars that go into organic agriculture, they lag far behind the research dollars that go into conventional farming. That's a very well-established fact.

There is some very promising research going on. The University of British Columbia has an organic agriculture research program looking at how pest management and natural fertilizer strategies are done.

In your opinion, do we need more efforts in that regard to really scale up organic agriculture? Do you have any thoughts to contribute on that subject for our committee's study?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

You have time for a brief answer, Mr. Lévêque.

[Jean-François Lévêque]

Okay, Mr. Chair.

I think one way to support organic agriculture is through tax measures. It would actually be relatively simple to penalize users of chemical products because any farm using pesticides must be registered. I think that applying the user pay principle would be one of the first things to do.

In Quebec, organic agriculture is also underfunded, which creates a very substantial lag. We talked about Denmark earlier, but Switzerland is also investing heavily in organic agriculture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Lévêque.

We will now begin the second round. Mr. Lehoux, go ahead for five minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for joining us this afternoon.

My first question is for Mr. Bertrand.

Danone is a business that operates in Canada, but also outside the country. As you have probably noted, Canada has trade agreements with various countries that often include provisions on agriculture. However, we often have little or no control over products that enter Canada.

Different rules apply when we export our products. How can we move forward on the environmental issue while having certain rules that apply internationally?

[Jean-Marc Bertrand]

That's a very interesting point of view. Standards for quantifying or qualifying regenerative agriculture don't really exist.

Danone worked with non-government organizations in Europe to develop standards. It used a third party to establish credibility and develop standards.

I was saying that, to improve soil health, we must go to the fields less often, put on covers, and so on. So standards must be followed. Not just any farmer can say they are capturing carbon in the soil. They must follow established procedures—

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Bertrand, I wanted to know what control measures could be worked into the international agreements we are signing. There are currently a number of market opportunities. How can we ensure that the products arriving here respect the way we farm in Canada?