Agriculture Committee on Nov. 5th, 2024

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Beauvais, in your opening statement, you talked about tax incentives for the purchase of a first farm and the fact that sellers need money for retirement. Mr. Gourde talked about patient capital. What do you think about the idea of developing a system where farmers would agree to give up their land to new farmers, not at its speculative value, but at its agricultural value? That way, the farm could eventually be profitable.

The problem is that a person can't make money in their lifetime on farmland bought today because it's too expensive. The seller would have to agree to sell it for less and, in return, be entitled to some kind of pension that would be set up for that purpose, whether it's through the Quebec Pension Plan or the Canada Pension Plan. The pension would compensate that person for taking the land out of the vicious cycle of land speculation and allowing a new farmer to take over. Afterwards, the land would always be resold only at its agricultural value.

What do you think of that idea? I'll let you talk about that. You have about a minute and a half.

[David Beauvais]

Yes, that's what we want. We want to bring the value of farmland back to its agricultural value so that a farm can become profitable, because the land is currently being used for speculation. It's not a good model. Farmland is a tool box. It's what we use for our production. It should not be used for anything else.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I'm sorry, Mr. Beauvais. There's an interpretation problem for our anglophone colleagues.

We're going to try again, but I think we're running into a bit of a technical issue.

Mr. Beauvais, I'm going to ask you to speak slowly and—

I'm sorry, Mr. Beauvais.

If you want to finish that response, you can certainly submit it in writing. We're being told by our translation team that we have to make sure we can operate. I apologize. I don't know whether it's a technical piece, or if it's your Internet connection.

Mr. Perron, you have 45 seconds left.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Beauvais, thank you for sending us your answer in writing. I invite all the witnesses to do the same.

Mr. Caron, I'd like to hear your opinion on restoring the value of land to its agricultural value.

[Martin Caron]

It's essential, as Mr. Beauvais was explaining. The price of farmland must correspond to its agricultural value.

In Canada, there are various federal programs for farmers, such as AgriStability or AgriInvest. There's also the AgriRecovery framework.

Now, I think we need new federal programs modelled on Agri-épargne and Agri-relève. It's very urgent. Something has to be done quickly, because the next generation of farmers is our future. There are also economic repercussions. Solutions have to be found very quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you.

Alistair, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Garahan, I'd like to continue with you, because I appreciate that you were focusing your remarks on new entrants—those outside of succession planning.

I know from personal experience that it takes a significant commitment to jump into farming if your family has no prior experience in it. We certainly need those new entrants because, in some cases, succession planning isn't going to work out. Farmers' children may have other interests. We still need that productive farmland to continue operation, potentially in new hands. We've heard repeatedly from witnesses, not just today but also at other times, that when new entrants come into farming, they look at a lot of the risks associated with that. It's not just a question of the commodity or market prices that exist. There are also input costs and, of course, increasingly, variable climate concerns.

When you are speaking to new entrants, what are you hearing from them regarding their concerns about the wild variability that can exist in farming? What do they wish to see? For example, what immediately come to mind are business risk management programs. Do you have any thoughts on what they're saying to you on how those can be improved?

[Moe Garahan]

Yes. I'd say the big one, as I mentioned, is that a lot of new entrants are interested in local markets and diversified commodities, and that type of farming on small and medium-sized farms is not effectively covered in the AgriRisk programs.

There really needs to be a balanced approach to supporting small and medium-sized diversified farms. That is what many new entrants are wanting to head into, and we just don't have the same types of protections that other commodities do. It's a really serious issue that needs to be addressed.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

The current crop of business risk management programs are, in your view and their view, tailored to a very specific type of farming, and it needs to be just a little more accessible for those people who have smaller operations that are more diversified.

[Moe Garahan]

Yes, they're both smaller and more diversified.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay. That's great. I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Caron, we hear about seasonal or temporary agricultural farm workers. Citizenship and Immigration Canada has a backlog of permits to process.

Is this really a major problem in Quebec right now?

Mr. Caron, are you still there?

[Martin Caron]

Yes, I'm here.

We talked about immigration. You have to understand that, in Quebec alone, a third of temporary foreign workers make up the workforce of agricultural businesses. It's always a challenge.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I'm sorry, Mr. Caron. It's the same problem we had with Mr. Beauvais. I invite you to submit your answer in writing to the committee.

I'm sorry, Mr. Gourde. You have four minutes and 30 seconds.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

My next question is for the other witnesses. Just let us know if you'd like to answer.

I'm interested in the dismantling of farms. Young farmers take over about 50% of farms. In many cases, farms are dismantled and resold, allowing other farms to get bigger. Do you see that as a concern?

The number of farmers is still going down. We need more and more temporary foreign workers to work on farms because Canadians don't seem to want to do it.

How much can Canadian interest in agriculture be maintained if one day there are practically no more people who want to work on farms?

[Jack Chaffe]

I'll take a stab at it to start with.

We need better BRM products. AgriStability is broken. I know you spoke to the fact that it doesn't work for smaller farms. It doesn't work for diverse farms, where you may be involved in beef and cash crop and one offsets the other. We definitely need help there.

On the other side, I know it went around about new entries' interest rates and trying to get investment in the farming operation. For new entries, they go to borrow money and they're paying a higher rate than a well-established farm. That's a deterrent there, and when you're up against low margins, it's almost impossible.

I will turn it over to my colleagues for a response.

[Coralee Foster]

I would say very much the same as Jack has said. For new entrants, if you look at the cost of farmland or any capital that's involved in it relative to the return on investment, it's very low. That certainly is a challenge in looking at that business model.

I know that the OFA has done some studies on the cost of farmland relative to the return on investment. In 2023, I believe it was, if you bought a piece of land in Ontario, 47% of the revenue would need to go towards servicing debt. That's before any of your costs, so certainly that becomes cost-prohibitive for new entrants and for those coming into it in a family situation as well.

[Moe Garahan]

I just want to say there are a lot of new entrants. They just can't access the current system. I think this is the challenge.

You have a number of family farms that don't have succession. You have a number of diverse farm entrants who want to farm. They want to commercially farm. We have hundreds in Ottawa alone who want to farm. They need access to small-scale land so that they can start their part-time business and grow it into a full-time business, especially near urban populations. They need to have access. People not wanting to farm is not the issue.

We're at a tipping point right now. As Mr. Perron and Mr. Louis said, we have to take agricultural land out of being a commodity, a speculative commodity. It has to become commensurate with what can be earned from that farmland, and you will find that there are farmers here on these lands who want to take this up.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

My question is again for anyone who can and wants to jump in.

Is there a lot of frustration towards a government that invests billions of dollars in patient capital for industrial sectors? Do you feel that's unfair? Apparently, some of that money will be wasted. There is almost nothing for the agricultural sector. Pardon the expression, but we're talking about peanuts for the next generation of farmers. Young farmers pay themselves a salary of $200 to $300 a week to eat, because they can't afford more.

In the long term, will this undermine the sustainability of agriculture?

[Jack Chaffe]

It will, definitely, in the long term. As I mentioned before, in my submission, food security has to be number one. The ability to produce food, whether it's on a large-scale family farm operation or on a smaller scale, is essential. In Canada, with our global markets, we need to recognize that.

[Moe Garahan]

I believe there's a lot of room for small and medium-sized diversified farms to make significant income on small parcels of land. I think that just hasn't been proportionately invested in, and it is what consumers are wanting to connect with as well. I think we need to value the broad type of farming and to look at what is viable today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to turn it over to Ms. Murray and Ms. Taylor Roy, who I think are going to split around five to six minutes.