Agriculture Committee on May 9th, 2022

[Dr. Gilles Saindon]

Thank you for the question.

We strive to engage with as many farms as possible, regardless of size, and to make an impact on those farms in Canada.

Through the on-farm climate action fund, we work with partners who have a good understanding of the realities of the farming community.

We work with 12 agencies are going to help us distribute those resources. Those agencies will be in the best position to figure out how best to engage small farms and tailor approaches to them.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Saindon.

You're considering the possibility of increasing the number of living labs. Will that result in a wider range of smaller labs, which would ultimately be perhaps better suited to the reality that most Canadian farms are small?

Have you considered involving more small farms in this living lab initiative?

[Dr. Gilles Saindon]

I will ask Dr. Nyiraneza to give you some details on that, because the approach to living labs in Prince Edward Island is not necessarily the same as the approach on farms with large acreage, like some that operate in Western Canada.

In the approach to the new generation of labs, the partners propose the living labs. They are the ones who will receive the funding and work with stakeholders to identify the ideal locations to host initiatives to improve on-farm practices.

Dr. Nyiraneza, can you tell us a little bit about the farm in Prince Edward Island? It's not a large-scale operation like we see in Western Canada.

[Dr. Judith Nyiraneza]

Thank you very much.

In the living labs initiative, the agricultural producers are responsible for managing projects related to it. Producers get together and they define the farming practices they want to test. They also consider farms whose owners want to participate in groundbreaking projects. This is done on a voluntary basis. We don't target farm sizes in advance. Instead, we work with progressive producers who really want to get involved in this and be partners.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you.

In terms of adaptation related to these new precision farming methods, what role can Agriculture and Agri-food Canada play in adapting programs to small farm realities? Sometimes it's not that they don't want to be involved in projects, they don't have the financial means to do so.

Mr. Saindon, are the programs well adapted in that regard?

[Dr. Gilles Saindon]

It would be quite difficult for me to answer your question. Right now, we've determined the upcoming funding envelopes, but as for the actual projects, nothing has been announced yet. So it's a little early for me to answer that question.

In terms of using precision farming techniques, we're doing research in that area with some collaborators. This isn't necessarily done on large farms. At the Research and Development Centre in Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu, we work with people from the horticultural sector, who don't have large farms. We try to use precision farming techniques to help these producers.

It should not be taken for granted that we're only targeting farms with large acreage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I'm sorry, but time is up.

Thank you very much.

Before we move on to the next round of questions, I'd like to point out that a buffet has been set up in the room. I think it's a good idea and it will help us continue with next round of questions.

This will allow people to grab their lunch, so I would invite you to do so. Just please be respectful of those who are going to be continuing our questions.

The only other thing is that it does look like we might have bells starting at 12:30 p.m. We would like to seek your consent to go 15 minutes after the bells start so that folks who want to attend in person can, but we can continue the round of questioning. Is that fine? Okay.

We will go to Mr. Turnbull for five minutes. Please feel free to grab your lunch, but please be mindful of the noise.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the panellists for being here today. It's great to have so many esteemed experts in the room, and on a topic that's so important, so thank you for all your research and for being here today.

I want to start with a quote from a report I have been reading on “Sustainable Diets and Biodiversity”, which was produced by the FAO.

On page 34, it says “appropriate agro-ecological food production systems can perform better (around 180%) than agro-industrial ones”.

Mr. Saindon, maybe I will start with you. Have you been seeing across all your research that farmers can actually get higher yields by practising agro-ecological methods?

[Dr. Gilles Saindon]

I may have heard of these points raised in the same way as you, maybe in reports. I have not witnessed this myself, but maybe some of my colleagues may have been closer to this reality, so maybe I will turn to them to see if they have any views on this.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Maybe I could direct it to Dr. Lemke, who I think has done a study. I have just read a little bit about monocropping having perhaps a negative impact on soil health and crop yield.

Dr. Lemke, maybe I could go to you.

[Dr. Reynald Lemke]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's not an easy question to answer, but it's certainly a good question.

In terms of an agro-ecological approach, it's not a very definite term, so it's not easy to give a definite response to, but certainly one of the factors is biodiversity, whether at the cropping system level in terms of a more diverse rotation or in management factors that encourage and maintain below-ground biodiversity as well.

There certainly has been research showing that diverse crop systems or rotations tend to be more resilient and tend to favour carbon sequestration and other benefits. If you're including a legume into that diverse rotation, you're also reducing your need or requirement for synthetic nitrogen across the rotation.

Indirectly, there are many aspects of an agro-ecological approach for which we have evidence of beneficial outcomes. As to whether we can get to 180% of a monoculture approach, I can't really respond to that directly.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

What about nutrient uptake in the plants themselves that are being cultivated? Is there higher nutrient uptake with biodiversity within the soils and within the cropping system?

[Dr. Reynald Lemke]

The short answer is that in a more diverse system, particularly a well-balanced system, supply nutrient cycling tends to be favoured, and that would, at least in theory, mean that we would have a more efficient use of those nutrients that are being cycled, so I guess the short answer is yes, in the sense that nutrient supply generally is favoured.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Saindon, I'll go back to you.

In his comments, Mr. Barlow started off by saying—and I think we can all agree—that our farmers and individuals across the country who are part of our agricultural industry are making contributions to the fight against climate change. If we look at a spectrum or a continuum of systems from agroindustrial systems to agro-ecological systems, where would Canada be right now? Is it closer to an agroindustrial system, or closer to an agro-ecological system?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Dr. Gilles Saindon]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's a very interesting question. I think the answer would be that we have a range. We probably have people who are very close to an agroindustrial system, with shorter rotations and a large scale and all of that. We've seen some of these things. However, we have other people who are really at the other end of the spectrum.

The answer is that we have a range in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull. Thank you, Mr. Saindon.

Now we're going to go back to our six-minute round of questions and we're going to go to Mr. Falk. You're up for six minutes.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses this morning from the Department of Agriculture. We appreciate your testimony and the information you're providing us.

I'm from Manitoba. Some time back, Keystone Agricultural Producers showed that agriculture is a carbon sink of about 30 megatonnes per year. Is Ag Canada familiar with this study? Do you have an opinion on it?

[Dr. Ed Gregorich]

I'm sorry. What was the question?

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Keystone Agricultural Producers in Manitoba produced a study that showed that agriculture is a carbon sink of about 30 megatonnes per year. I'm wondering if the Department of Agriculture is familiar with that. Has anybody had the time to look at it and can anybody provide an opinion on that?

[Dr. Ed Gregorich]

I'm not familiar with that specific study, but as our ADM mentioned, across Canada we are a net sink in terms of soil carbon. It is improving and has improved over the years. In terms of the exact amounts—30 megatonnes or nine megatonnes—there are a range of estimates, and that relates to how it was measured and who was measuring it.

I guess the short answer is yes, we are increasing carbon.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Are we increasing carbon sequestration?

[Dr. Ed Gregorich]

Yes.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

We talk a lot at this committee about carbon sequestration and storage. What eventually happens to that carbon?

[Dr. Ed Gregorich]

It can store in the ground for long periods of time. That's the thing. It will stay there as long as we maintain it, and that's part of the challenge. Once we increase it to a certain point, it will stay there for quite a while, unless there's some sort of degradation process that occurs.

That's the nice thing about carbon sequestration in agricultural soils: It gets it into the soil and it can stay there for a very long time. They can do radiocarbon dating and they find carbon molecules that are hundreds or thousands of years old in the soil, so there's a long-term reservoir capacity in the soil. Getting that up a bit is possible with management. It takes a while, but it sequesters and stores for the long term.