Agriculture Committee on June 6th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

We'll now go to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for helping guide our committee in this study. We really do appreciate the time that you have taken to join us today.

I would like to start my questions with Mr. Amosov with Ecoaction.

Sir, I was looking at your website and you had an article there about how the war has put a lot of pressure on the natural grasslands of Ukraine. Our two countries have that in common. We also have large tracts of land here that are natural grasslands.

Your article also says that we shouldn't take land from Mother Nature but from the invaders. You were talking about a lot of the Russian and Belarusian companies that lease land in Ukraine. Can you inform our committee about your efforts in that regard?

[Mykhailo Amosov]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, we have such a problem when agribusiness takes more land for their operations. It's already wild ecosystems. Maybe in the Soviet Union it was arable land, but then it went back to grasslands and even natural reserves. Then agribusiness took it into operation again. Now, because of the Russian aggression and the shortages in land for sowing campaigns, we see this risk as the demand for more land increases when we need more land, more grain and more exports, etc.

We compare it with Russian and Belarusian companies, which lease land in Ukraine from private persons, from government and from communities. We would like to take this land from Russian companies and put it into operation for Ukrainian farmers. That would be fair for us.

Those are the main points here.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for illustrating that for our committee.

Ms. Klymenko, in your opening statement you referenced how Russian operations, especially in the occupied lands of Ukraine, are essentially stealing the agricultural produce of Ukraine and using it for their own profit.

What have you heard about the treatment of Ukrainian farmers in occupied lands? Here in Canada, the demographics are that our farmers tend to be on the older end of the spectrum. There's a real challenge in our country in getting new generations involved in farming. It's a skill set that can't be easily replaced.

Could you just illustrate what the plight of Ukrainian farmers is like in occupied lands? Also, can you go into a little bit more detail about what's happening to that produce from the Russian occupiers?

[Yulia Klymenko]

Yes. As I said, half a million tonnes of Ukrainian grains have already been stolen by Russians. Mostly they are delivering this either to Russia or Syria and trying to sell it through these countries.

Occupied territories and farmers are really struggling because, first of all, Russian soldiers are managing agricultural businesses on occupied territories. They are basically taking out, very cheaply, from the farmers' harvest—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Ms. Klymenko, I apologize, but we're having a bit of an issue with the mike. I think it's bit too close to your mouth. We were pretty good up until now, so we'll trust that we can make it work, but we were having an issue with translation.

I've stopped the clock, Mr. MacGregor.

Ms. Klymenko, why don't we try that again? I apologize for interrupting, but if you could try to pay close attention, as you were before, because you were spot on in the past.

[Yulia Klymenko]

I hope it's good now.

Russian soldiers stole half a million tonnes of Ukrainian grain and moved it, as I said, to Russia and Syria. They're treating our farmers in occupied territories very badly. They are actually taking the grain for free or at very low prices. The grains and agricultural food is being sent to Russia and then sold either in occupied territories or in Russia at a very high price.

The difference of price in food between non-occupied territories and occupied territories of Ukraine is threefold, so you can buy a potato, for example, for 10 hryvnias in Kyiv, and for 30 hryvnias or more in Kherson, which is occupied. They are basically cheating people, and they're stealing grains and agricultural food.

What I can tell you? Civilians are not controlling occupied territories. Soldiers are making money by stealing agricultural products from the people who harvest it by hand.

On the fields, we have farmers, and they are probably much younger, because this is a very profitable business in Ukraine. We are probably one of the few countries without subsidies for the agricultural businesses because it's profitable. Many young people turn to agribusiness, because they can make a lot of money out of it, bring new technologies, increase productivity and many other things.

We don't have a problem like you do in Canada. Most of our farmers are young, more or less young, and they have new skills. They travel around the world to get more skills to put into the Ukrainian agricultural sector. The Ukrainian agricultural sector is three to four times less productive than yours or that of the U.S., so we have a long way to go to increase productivity and to make even more money for young farmers in Ukraine.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor and Ms. Klymenko.

We're going to move to our second round of questioning, with five minutes for the Conservatives, five minutes for the Liberals and two and a half each for the other parties.

Mr. Falk, please go ahead.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for your presentations and for the very excellent information.

Ms. Klymenko, I'd like to get back to you as well. You made some comments early on in your presentation about where you thought the origins of this crisis were created. I'm very curious if you could expand on that a bit. You said that this has been a planned food shortage and also a planned immigration.

Can you tell me where these things are being planned from your perspective and vantage point?

[Yulia Klymenko]

From our experience, we have been at war with Russia for eight years. It didn't start 100 days ago. It's been eight years of war, starting in the eastern part of Ukraine. We are already very experienced warriors. We understand that Russia is not fighting us only with military forces. It's fighting us with cyber-attacks, destabilizing the political situation and many other means. You are now seeing that it is also fighting with civilized countries by weaponizing food and energy.

The result of the food crisis will be migration. There will be a large amount of migration and a lot of migrants, because hungry people will first try to change their governments and that will lead to unrest, and then they will go to the lands and countries that can provide food for their kids. This is obvious. People will seek to escape famine. They will need to feed their kids. They will go somewhere, probably to more developed countries in Europe and North America or other countries.

People in Africa and Asia will not have another choice, other than looking for food in other countries, unfortunately. This will result in a migration crisis. That's our prediction from what we can see from the inside. We can see that the Russian war is not only about military operations, but it's about many other dimensions, and you have to be very careful about that.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Okay.

Can you also explain a little further what the end game or what the perceived benefit of all this immigration would be? Obviously it's going to lead to some complications from a food supply source, but to what end is this being played out?

[Yulia Klymenko]

Probably people who will come will need schools and social support. They will need a social infrastructure. They will need more housing. They will need more teachers, etc.

We can see it now with the six million Ukrainians who have fled to Europe. The European social systems and their public services are overloaded by Ukrainians because Ukrainian kids have to go to school and to hospitals. You need teachers and doctors who are fluent in Ukrainian because otherwise you cannot teach Ukrainian kids. They don't speak Polish or the German language.

There are many other things in Europe. Yes, Europe has done very well with the six million. It was unexpected that they actually absorbed the people and are dealing with the six million Ukrainians who fled the war, but if 10 million or 15 million Africans or Asians come to Europe, for example, or to North America, you will need to provide these people with basic social needs and public services. You cannot just put them into the streets.

That will burden the social system.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes.

Just for clarification, is it your understanding that the intent is to overwhelm the social systems of the European countries?

[Yulia Klymenko]

I'm sorry. Can you...?

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Do you believe that the intent of all this is to overwhelm the social services of all these European countries?

[Yulia Klymenko]

No, the intent is political destabilization because social problems will lead to what we saw happen with Merkel, for example, and the main argument against the German government was an immigration crisis—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Klymenko.

Thank you, Mr. Falk. We're at time.

We're now going to turn to Mr. Baker.

Let me just say, Mr. Baker, I know there are other parliamentarians other than you, but as the chair of the Canadian-Ukrainian interparliamentary association, we certainly appreciate your advocacy. We appreciate your being here today to ask questions. I think it's appropriate.

You have five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, to you and the members of the committee, for having me on the committee today. It's a real honour to be here.

As the chair was just saying, I'd like to say to our witnesses before I ask my questions, that I am the chair of the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group, which is a group of members of Parliament of all parties.

MPs in our Parliament, as in your parliament, disagree on many things. In fact, in some cases it feels that perhaps we disagree on everything sometimes, but we are united on Ukraine so I want you to know that. I want to thank my colleagues of all parties for their unity and their strength and all that we're doing together to support the Ukrainian people.

Obviously the war in Ukraine is an existential crisis for Ukrainians. It's a humanitarian disaster with Russia committing genocide. The Canadian Parliament has proclaimed unanimous support for that declaration. It's a threat to global security and Canada's security, and it's of course a threat to the food supply around the world, as we've been discussing here today.

You and your people are not just fighting for Ukraine, but you're fighting for all of us, so we need to fight for you. Know that Canadian MPs of all parties are fighting for you.

I'd like to start by asking Ms. Bogonos a question, and I would ask you to be as brief as you can because I have a few other questions left.

What is the potential humanitarian impact of Russia's weaponization of the food supply? How bad could this be for the international community, for people around the world?

[Dr. Mariia Bogonos]

We already see the results in Ukraine because Ukrainian salaries are lower, the food prices are much higher so we have lower affordability of food in Ukraine.

Globally we have wheat prices, for example, that increased starting from February 25 by about 30% to 40%. The countries that are sensitive, like Egypt or Yemen or Bangladesh, were already suffering from the higher prices before the war. Now they will need additional policies or they will need additional humanitarian support in order to provide wheat or grains for their people. This will either put a tremendous burden on their budgets or the people will start being hungry.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to switch to Ms. Klymenko, if I may.

You said, earlier in the meeting, that Russia has offered to allow some food exports in exchange for a reduction of international sanctions against Russia. I was on Ukrainian 24 TV last night, and I was asked about this. Today, you said the world should not agree to this, which is what I said last night.

Why should the world not agree to this?

[Yulia Klymenko]

Because it's blackmailing.... Maybe that's a very short answer, but it's really blackmail. It's a violation of any and all international rules and order. You cannot, first, purposefully block ports, then allow two routes and ask about the lifting of all sanctions.

Next time, they will come and block the Baltic countries, and they will say, “Okay, we need $10 billion, then we will unblock it.” It's blackmail. It's criminal behaviour. You cannot accept it if you want to have worldwide rules and order, with people respecting international laws and order. You have to punish such blackmailers. You cannot agree to this blackmail. We need to find other ways besides the lifting of sanctions.

I think the routes are a temporary solution. Routes with UN convoys will allow us to export, but the most sustainable way is with heavy weapons.

Thank you for your support. I'm from the opposition, actually, but we are united in Ukraine because we understand we have one enemy. We have to fight this beast first, and then we will argue about other things inside Ukraine as opposition and ruling parties, so thank you for your support.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Lastly, Ms. Klymenko, and quickly, every time we've asked you what you need, you've said, “weapons”.

What happens if Ukraine does not obtain the weapons it needs from the international community?