Agriculture Committee on June 16th, 2022

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Lobb, for being here. I appreciate the difficulty that farmers have. I come from a long line of Dutch farmers in hog farming, chicken farming, garden produce and the lot, so I've seen what you're talking about. I agree that there are years when it's tougher than other years. Certainly, climate events have added to that.

I'm really trying to weigh the two sides, because I think the increase in severe climate events has also presented challenges and added costs to our farmers as well. We just have to look at the droughts and the floods and everything else that's going on to see how insurance costs, risk-management costs and just rebuilding have become so expensive for those farmers and for our governments, quite frankly.

While I agree with you that food sovereignty is important and we need to protect our farmers, the question is, how do we best do that? In the short run, with these increasing pressures, I see what you're saying, but you yourself spoke about some innovations in biomass and things that can be done. Certainly, the grid has to be expanded, but there has to be a point at which we want to incentivize more of this technology. We want to encourage people to develop it. If there's no price on pollution, will that be there? How will that market incentive work? Do you have any thoughts on what that balance is?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

The one biodigester that I can think of in my riding was there long before there was ever a carbon tax. It was there probably 12 years ago. He didn't need an incentive to do it—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Right.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

—as far as I know. It certainly didn't come from a carbon tax, as far as I know.

What I would say is that innovation will make it.... It's already doing it anyways, but I think that if you look at the short to medium term, there are a lot of pressures facing Canadian agriculture and Canadian industry, and this is a chance for the committee or for Parliament to provide some relief for Canadian agriculture.

If I thought—maybe everybody else here thought—that if this were applied it would change climate forever for the better, I'd say let 'er rip, but it's not going to. I just look at the calls and emails I get at my office. For the issues that are coming in, where we have our agriculture days with the county and everything else, it's not a list that is getting shorter with issues. It is a list that is getting much longer.

This is an opportunity here to not create another layer of bureaucracy, and to not try to come up with a calculation that's fair but one that will actually help farmers. On the rebate—like the $1.73 and $1.47 per $1,000—I think that's trying to say that “there's a recognition for some of the good you do”, but I think that if you look at the neutrality, on a farm they're getting a really short deal with the current way it's set up with the rebate structure in Bill C-8.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

With regard to one of the other output-based pricing systems and the greenhouse gas credits that we're working on right now, do you see that as sufficient to offset the price on pollution for some of these farmers? You mentioned that they're—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

If—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

—doing so much to help our environment. If that's recognized, do you think that—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

If Minister Bibeau had presented in the fall economic update—this is my own personal opinion—that it was $1.47 per $100 and not per $1,000, I might have been persuaded to vote for the budget, because I think farmers in my riding and around the four backstop provinces then could actually see a significant return for their environmental good.

I think that at $1.47 per $1,000 it's really...to me, it's just a pittance. It's a token amount.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

So you're saying it's about the amount...?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

No. I'm saying that if you're charging a carbon tax and it's costing them tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars, but you're not recognizing the environmental good they do on their farm with what the sequestration of the crops does, with the woodlots and with their responsibility to the creeks, rivers and streams that flow through.... They plant cover crops in the fall and riparian strips along areas where there's tilled land to not disturb the soil and have runoff. They do all of that almost for free, and they get nothing in return. That $1.47 per $1,000 to me does not seem like a fair deal if you're charging them the tax and basically making them out to be “bad guys” in a way.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I don't think that's the intention behind it, because I think that on this committee and in Parliament we all appreciate our farmers and—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Oh yes. No, no—I agree with that.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

—we know how important it is.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thanks, Ms. Taylor Roy. I appreciate that.

We now go to Mr. Perron.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Oh! The chairman spoke French.

Mr. Lobb, Mr. Drouin asked you earlier whether you were open to adding a timeline and you said yes.

Everyone would like us to move towards reduced fossil fuel consumption.

You are talking about something very interesting, namely, the recognition of positive actions for the environment. What do you see happening next?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes, like on a sunset clause, it would be 10 years. I personally have no problem with that at all. I mean, who knows where technology will be at? Who knows where the evolution and rotation of governments will be and where the policies are at? Who knows?

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

How should we proceed?

We can pass the bill and include a timeline. I believe though that we have to do something more in the meantime.

You talked in particular about cover crops. In a study conducted previously by the committee, we talked about the environmental impact of farming and the need to recognize and reward each positive action. We talked about the possibility of introducing a program similar to AgriInvest, which would give farm businesses access to funding to move on to the next innovation.

Do you think that would be beneficial and would accelerate the transition?

If we recognized farmers' efforts, they would be more motivated to do more. If they also had funds available, that might accelerate research.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

You have different colleges and universities in each province doing research in collaboration with business and doing some great work on a whole number of things. For programs that deliver to the farmer, for example, the environmental farm plan, a lot of farmers in Ontario—at least here in Bruce—think the environmental farm plan has done some good work. I've seen it myself. However, the problem is that by the time the applications are open and applied for, almost all the money is gone. It doesn't really seem fair that if you missed it by a week, because you were away or working on something else, you missed out.

If they had the ability to apply a significant amount of money to do some good that is fair and equitable up and down each county road, I'd be all for it. I think everybody would be for that. It would make sense to me, but as I said, you likely think of your own constituents for programs that have happened like that. One neighbour was successful at it, and the next one was not.

That is frustrating.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb. That's the time.

Thank you, Mr. Barlow, for filling in in my absence.

Welcome, Mr. Lobb, to the committee.

We're going to Mr. MacGregor now.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lobb, in my province and in many provinces, you have marked gas and marked diesel. They usually add a dye to it, so that you can easily tell it's for on-farm use. Usually, it's in its own little pump and you have to demonstrate that you are a farmer before they'll allow you to fill up with it.

I get propane delivered to my house, so it's easily measured. They can see what tank it goes in.

Do you anticipate any unintended consequences or difficulties, especially for farmers, who might have a direct line going to their farm? Will they now have to set up a separate meter for that system?

Is that anything that you might have considered during the process of drafting this bill?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I can't say for sure for propane, but I think most would have a large tank by their dryer, or they'd have a large tank beside their chicken barn or hog barn. Some don't even have a home on the farm, let's just say, but they would have a smaller tank at your house. That is pretty obvious.

The natural gas is pretty close, too, but your accountant would be able to calculate the square footage of your home, if it were all on the same metre, within a few bucks. It's going to be pretty small, compared with the cost of heating a hog barn, so we're talking a couple of hundred bucks on a $50,000 bill.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

All right. Those are all the questions I have.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay. Thank you very much.

We're going to go to a third round.

We started a bit late, Mr. Barlow. I think it was nine minutes later, because of the votes and some of the delays. It's okay, John. I appreciate everything you did, but we will go to a third round.

Mr. Barlow, I'll let you decide who's going to speak on your side, but it's over to you for five minutes.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Mr. Falk will take the round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Go ahead, Mr. Falk.