Evidence of meeting #31 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
I am in a similar area, where I do not have animals on-farm or animal barns. I think they could be looked at by having somebody from that sector speak on that.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
You're talking about a period of 10 years. Does it have to be 10 years? Could it be 5 years or 8 years, for instance?
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
I think in general we came here to have an exemption in place, period.
The innovation can happen at a rapid rate, or it can take a long time to establish an industry. I don't think there's an easy way to jump in and put a number on it. If we're saying 10 years, then it gives some roadway for government and farmers to work together on it. In the short term, I don't think that can happen as quickly as you might think.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
What is currently being done in research and development in this area? Is there any work under way? Are there any solutions emerging?
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
Yes. I know that Grain Farmers of Ontario has several research projects right now undergoing different ways to dry grain.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
I think my time is almost up.
In closing, Mr. Chair, I'd like to raise a point of order about the interpretation and sound tests that were done beforehand. Despite everything, it wasn't working for Mr. Orb earlier. I urge you to be vigilant in this regard. Some testimony may need to be postponed.
For now, I'd like to submit some questions to Mr. Orb in writing. He could then send his answers to the committee.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Having more time doesn't matter if I can't get answers. I don't get answers because I'm a francophone.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
Mr. Orb, before we move on, do you have your translation selected as English?
4:20 p.m.
President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
Yes, I do. I could actually hear the gentleman. I had problems at the beginning, but I got them straightened out.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
Okay.
Before we move on, because we have had a witness cancel in the second panel, we're going to extend this panel past the time.
So, Mr. Perron, you'll have a second round to ask Mr. Orb some questions, if you want.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Okay. I can ask my questions later, in the second round, but normally that would have been done by now. It's a problem. I don't have an immediate solution to offer, but in a pinch, the witness could answer my additional questions in writing.
I'd like this situation not to happen again. Thank you.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
I understand the problem you have with that today.
Mr. Johns, you have six minutes, please.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you for having me at the committee, Mr. Chair.
I certainly want to give a shout-out to Mr. Lobb for putting this bill forward. It's a great day when Parliament comes together and votes together, especially for an NDP proposal. I'm here on behalf of Mr. MacGregor, and it's an honour to celebrate that victory today for all of us in Parliament.
I guess my question.... I apologize because some of this will be somewhat repetitive, but it will help with our theme of questioning. The committee has been hearing that the advancements in technology that would allow farmers to dry their grain without the use of propane or natural gas are likely about a decade away from being readily available and economically viable. Can you talk about your views on implementing a sunset clause for this exemption, such that after a 10-year period the statute would revert back to the language that currently exists?
Mr. Byrne, do you want to speak to that a little bit?
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
Yes. I think that, as we've said previously, if the sunset clause gives enough runway for actual innovation to take place, it can be helpful and it can work. As you're saying, a decade away...a lot can happen, and we'd be open to seeing innovation hopefully solving it.
I would like to say that I don't think allowing us to operate as we do on our farms right now slows down innovation. We're running efficient ways. We're doing the best we can to eliminate any deficiencies. At the same time, if something innovative comes to market that will save us money, our farmers are usually the first on board to jump in and implement that and make it work on their farms.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Super.
With regard to the subject of advancements in technology, I know that my colleague, Mr. MacGregor, asked Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada about emerging technologies, and Natasha Kim, assistant deputy minister at AAFC, said the government has invested $1.5 billion to help farmers reduce carbon emissions through sustainable practices and technologies. However, when asked specifically about new technologies for grain drying, she referred to business risk management programs.
Mr. Leslie, you kind of alluded to this, that we don't know where we're going to be in 10 years and what supports are going to be there. Can you talk about what innovative developments are on the horizon for the grain-drying industry, how long these will take to come to market and what supports are needed?
4:25 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
Sure. I will say, in defence of the government, that there has been a program for grain dryers specifically. The challenge with it is that grain dryers are an expensive piece of equipment. To upgrade or to buy a new one, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even a $20-million fund doesn't go very far when we have to upgrade tens of thousands of grain dryers across the country or to build newer, more efficient ones. In terms of the technological advancements, as they relate to the 10-year period, it's going to be a challenge.
If we think of the need to look at what the outcomes are of using a different heat source, one of the things we've looked at would be biomass. One of the ideas has been the use of straw that is currently.... You know, after harvest, there's straw in the field. Well, what is the impact of taking a harrow over that field again? What is the diesel usage to pull that straw together to then bundle it, save it and burn it as needed? What is the impact on soil organic matter? There could be ramifications.
The forestry industry, whether it be wood products...maybe there are options there. I don't know what the impacts could be, but I think we need to look at this in a bit of a holistic manner. Okay, maybe these fuel sources are possible, but what are the impacts going to be on factor x? Then, in the context of how we convert tens of thousands of dryers to that, what are the manufacturing needs to get the proper new innovations on each of these farms, and at what scale can we actually do that?
With regard to your question about 10 years, I think that's ambitious. I think we're okay if it means getting this legislation passed, and a sunset is a good idea. That's why I go back to a mechanism, an order in council or whatever it is, to allow that if that doesn't happen in the timeline.... I think we'd all like to see...and certainly the farmer, if he could see reduced spending on this, he would more than happily make those purchases. Again, add in the environmental benefit, and he or she will happily do that, but I think we need to be realistic in how fast this could be brought up to scale to have meaningful impact in terms of overall emissions for our country.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Yes. You talked about scale, and you talked about these programs and forestry. I come from a forestry area. All of the programs, the really solid programs, are oversubscribed tenfold. Can you speak about access to those funds and what that looks like in terms of scale? What's needed in terms of the federal government really stepping into this?
4:25 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
Yes. In this example, the program specifically for grain dryers was filled up very quickly. Again, it could be a $500,000 grant for a large operation for a new grain dryer from scratch. This is a major investment in one operation. If you extrapolate that across the country, across tens of thousands of potential clients who are the farmers, it will quickly fill up. We're looking at pretty significant investments.
I think the government has shown that they're willing to put their money where their mouth is and make these sorts of investments in these clean technologies. We certainly support and appreciate that, but I think we need to recognize the scale of it. For this to be adopted and to have widespread use, it will take some time and quite a bit of money.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Byrne, do you want to add a bit in terms of those programs that are out there, the access, and what's needed to support farmers?
4:25 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
Sure. I would just echo the comment that you can put some money out, but when the expenditure is going to be large on the farm side, those dollars can be used up fairly quickly.
When we look at this runway, I'd also like to point out that when we look at, say, electric vehicles today, that took decades and decades before it was even an approachable idea that was going to work. It is still a long way away. Sometimes the emerging technology looks great on paper, but it does take a lot of steps before it's actually functional and is supported by an industry on-farm. In the case of dollars—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
I'm sorry, Mr. Byrne. I don't want to cut you off, but maybe you'll have a chance to build on that answer in another round of questions.