Evidence of meeting #31 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
Our final round will start off with Mr. Steinley for five minutes, please.
October 17th, 2022 / 4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I just want to get some numbers on the table right now for what we're talking about when it comes to emissions. First, 1.6% of all emissions in the world are Canadian. Of that 1.6% of our country's total emissions, 10% are agriculture-related emissions.
Branden, maybe you can answer this. How much of those emissions in agriculture do you think are coming from grain drying and barn heating?
Or would anyone on the panel have an estimate of the percentage of those emissions that we're talking about for this carbon tax right now? It's not a price on pollution. It's a carbon tax.
Would you have an idea of what those emissions would be?
4:30 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
I haven't seen a specific enough breakdown of agricultural GHG emissions to even hazard a guess as to what that specific part would be. I'm not sure about other folks on the panel.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Brendan or Ray, would you have a guess? Have you guys had a report on what percentage of the emissions in agriculture would be coming from grain drying or barn heating, or from irrigation, for that matter?
4:30 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
Similarly, I do not have those numbers. We would look to the government to provide the numbers they've come up with in that case. I know that, in speaking before, it was thought that grain drying was happening 24-7, 12 months of the year, when they were putting some of the numbers out. In discovery, when talking to some folks who—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
But that would definitely not be the case. That's just so that we can make sure that the government officials are aware of that, if they're going to try to use those numbers.
4:30 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
It would not be the case. We tried to make sure that we brought it down to the farm level as to exactly when those are being used, whether it's a few weeks or a couple of months at the most, for most farmers. I would think that grain drying would be a very small percentage.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you. I appreciate that very much.
Mr. Orb, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you a question. Thank you for being here once again and representing the voice of rural Saskatchewan.
We've heard from Mr. Byrne that he thinks the rebates in Ontario are less than 15% of what producers are paying in carbon taxes overall, in the overall bill. Would you have a guess or an estimate of what percentage of rebate would be covered in Saskatchewan? Would it be less than 15%? What do you think producers in Saskatchewan are getting back compared with what they're paying?
4:30 p.m.
President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
Well, what I'm hearing in Saskatchewan from producers is that it's much less than 15%. I think it's in the neighbourhood of 3% to 4%. That's keeping in mind that the carbon tax has gone up to $50 a tonne. As it continues to go up, if the rebates don't keep pace with that, farmers are going to be in a lot of trouble here.
You have to keep in mind, I think, the geography. Our producers in Saskatchewan export a lot of our grains. We have a long distance to port. We're paying tax on a lot of things, including transportation. The carbon tax on grain drying is a lot higher in some years than in others. This year we had a fairly dry year. I think a good part of our province is in a drought situation, so not as much grain would have been dried. Last year there was a tremendous amount of grain dried. The dryers ran for months on end.
So it's a huge factor.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Orb.
Obviously, Saskatchewan is very large, geographically, so there's a lot of trucking going on in our agriculture sector. We also have to take that into account.
I've heard from some of my colleagues in Saskatchewan.... I'd like to have your comments on this, Mr. Orb. The fact is that, on some of the grain-drying and barn-heating bills, there's GST charged on top of the carbon tax. It's a tax on a tax, which was unheard of until this government took power.
Have you heard that from other residents of Saskatchewan? Is that a concern among some of the people you represent in the rural municipalities of our province?
4:30 p.m.
President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
Yes, the carbon tax is definitely a factor, but the GST on that is something we see as being really unfair. We're not sure why the federal government is charging a GST tax on top of the carbon tax. That's a bit hard to take. I wish that was something the federal government would look at. Our organization doesn't feel that farmers should be paying GST on carbon tax.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Orb. I appreciate that.
I think I have 10 seconds left, so I'll just say thank you, all, for coming out and presenting to the committee. It's great to be back on the agriculture committee. We appreciate all the hard work you do in representing your producer groups.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
Thank you very much, Mr. Steinley.
I'll now go to Mrs. Valdez for five minutes.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I'd like to thank the witnesses for joining this discussion today.
I'm going to direct these questions to Mr. Leslie.
Are you aware of any grain farmers in your industry who have used fossil fuels as an alternative?
4:35 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
As an alternative to...?
4:35 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
I'd say fossil fuels make up the core use, right now.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I came across an interesting article about an Ontario farmer who gave up propane and fossil fuels to invest in biomass. In fact, a Manitoba company introduced the BioDryAir for some farmers, which has reduced costs, while at the same time fighting climate change.
Do you believe that biomass-fuelled air dryers are viable for the industry?
4:35 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
Certainly, that's the hope. I think everybody agrees we would like to transition. It's just a matter of how quickly we can scale up.
These pilots are great opportunities to highlight what might work. It's what we call an “extension” in our industry and others. That's one of the biggest things farmers say: “Okay, we can see that this can work”, whether it be a research trial for a certain crop commodity or something else. I think opportunities like these are great to highlight, and the more broadly we can have them adopted, the better. A lot of innovations are being undertaken out there. Everybody wants to see what will work and how we can make life a bit more affordable for the operation.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Have you been able to see any pilots with biomass being executed, and how long do you think it would take to scale that up, in the future?
4:35 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
From the manufacturing and every aspect of it.... I couldn't predict how long that might take.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
There is an example of one farmer spending about $150,000 in traditional grain-drying costs in 2019, but when he switched to biomass, that cost went down to about $3,200 in 2020.
Would you agree this system could be more cost-effective without putting a price on pollution?
4:35 p.m.
Manager, Policy and Government Relations, Grain Growers of Canada
I would be curious about the cost of him converting to that fuel source. I would be curious about the fuel source and what impact it might have on his operation.
I'm not here to defend the use of fossil fuels in this operation. I'm here to explain that this is the way farmers across the country currently have the infrastructure set up—using propane and natural gas. Whether it be electrification or biomass.... Whatever it might be, it is not something that's immediately around the corner en masse. That's the problem.
That's why we're open to the sunset clause. We're trying to find a bridge to a solution that we can all hope to achieve.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Thank you for your input.
These questions are for Mr. Byrne.
You mentioned this:
Grain farmers in Ontario have advanced in cover cropping for soil and water health, environmental tilling practices for soil and water health and precision agriculture practices for minimized environmental impact.
Do you have enough evidence to suggest that these practices are enough to reduce carbon emissions, as opposed to transitioning away from these fuels?
4:35 p.m.
Chairman, Grain Farmers of Ontario
I wouldn't look to have enough evidence to support what we're doing in terms of a future. A lot of that is what we've been doing to show we are environmentalists and stewards of the land. We weren't directed to start no-till cropping. Ontario simply took the initiative and decided to do it, and then found out it was better for the soils.
Farmers on the farm are doing the very best they can to maintain the soils—as Ms. Rood alluded to, earlier—so they can pass those fields on to the next generation better than when they had them.