Evidence of meeting #35 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
I'll pass it to Ms. Taylor Roy.
Thank you so much. I appreciate everyone who is before us today.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses.
I have one question regarding.... I think you, Mr. McCann, talked about climate shocks and what would happen in China and India with them, underscoring the need to address the climate crisis.
In your opinion, how significant is the role of developing lower-emissions technology and its uptake in agriculture to food security in the long run?
Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
In the long run, it certainly plays an important role, but we can't lose sight of the short term. These climate shocks don't just exist five, 10 or 15 years from now. We need approaches, practices and solutions that have systems in place so that for next year, if the heat wave or the drought you were concerned about in China this year gets worse, we're able to respond.
Yes, we need to look at long-term solutions, but we cannot lose sight of the need for adaptation today. That's a risk in China and India. It's a risk in Canada too. Gunter has lived through a drought. We need to be doing more to make sure that we have agriculture around the world that can withstand these shocks.
Yes, mitigation plays a role, but we cannot lose sight of the need for adaptation today.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you, Mr. McCann and Ms. Taylor Roy.
I am now giving the floor to Mr. Perron for six minutes.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I also thank the witnesses for being here with us today. I'll continue with Mr. McCann.
Mr. McCann, you were talking about the urgency of measures to counter climate change. Agriculture is clearly one of the sectors that has been most affected.
Do you think that the idea of providing direct support to agricultural producers who adopt best practices, and recognizing and paying farmers for improved agricultural performance, could be an option?
November 2nd, 2022 / 5:05 p.m.
Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
Yes. That could certainly be part of the solution.
If we look at what's happening at the moment in the United States and Europe, it's clear that governments are investing enormous amounts of money. However, the American approach is to invest on finding solutions. It's not only a matter of supporting practices that we already know about or supporting farmers who are adopting practices like 4R fertilizer efficiency. It's also a matter of finding solutions, discovering new practices, and introducing systems that make things easier for the government to support not only farmers, but also markets.
Companies and consumers are clearly ready to pay more, but it's important to introduce systems that allow companies and farmers to pay for improved performance. Solutions need to come from the government, but then the government will also have to support market-driven solutions.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Right. What you're saying is interesting.
What do you think about our imports?
In committee, we talk a lot about exporting more products. We also import a lot of agricultural goods. We are in a context in which we're asking our local producers to make huge efforts to constantly improve their performance, but I get the impression that we're not asking much of the foreign producers who export their goods to Canada.
How could we go about developing a form of reciprocal standards?
Take the example of a Mexican tomato that costs less than a Quebec tomato in the grocery store. The Mexican tomato had to travel across the continent to get to the store. There's a carbon footprint. Do you think there might be a way of measuring that?
Do you have any recommendations to make in this area?
Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
Yes.
First of all, it's important to point out that the transportation of agricultural commodities usually represents a very small part of the carbon footprint for these products.
Nevertheless, it's clear that our producers should be competitive not only in those markets to which they export their products, but also competitive here in Canada.
Needless to say, standards within Canada's borders are important, but we need a better international system. In recent years, the rules for international trade haven't worked as they should. Support is needed for efforts to find a solution that would make the international trade system work properly again.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Okay.
That's quite a challenge for us. If you have any specific proposals, we would gladly accept them.
Still on the topic of our local producers being able to compete with foreign goods, our local farmers are being asked to boost productivity, and those that export are in competition with others. I believe it was Mr. Orb who provided the percentages of support to farmers, which were approximately 40% in the United States and 38% in Europe. The percentage here is very low. Do you think a major change in direction is needed in Canada?
Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
I believe we should always be aware of how effective this support is. The important thing is not necessarily the amount paid, but rather how the money is paid and the effectiveness of the support. In Canada, risk management programs are available, but these are perhaps not the most efficient tools.
I believe that the US$3 billion investment from the American Department of Agriculture to the Climate-Smart Commodities program is very effective. This money will also be used to support and attract investment from the private sector. It's not that large an amount in terms of support for the agricultural sector, but it will have an impact for years.
It's really a matter of determining how we can provide better support to our farmers and smarter investment in the system to achieve enhanced outcomes at the end of the line.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Mr. McCann, there are also ways of supporting our farmers that don't cost anything. I'm thinking, for example, of maintaining systems like supply management. I'd like to hear what you have to say on that.
Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
For milk, the world market is changing. Canada may have a role to play in exporting products like milk powder.
It's undeniable that the system in Canada is working, that it helps our farmers and ensures that some products are also available for Canadians.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you very much, Mr. McCann and Mr. Perron.
Mr. MacGregor now has the floor for six minutes.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for appearing before our committee today. We do appreciate testimony helping us formulate some conclusions for the report that we want to table on this important subject.
Mr. Orb, I'd like to talk with you. I was taking some notes from the appearances of both the Canadian Federation of Agriculture and the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. At one point in their testimonies, both expressed some concern about the encroachment on farmland.
Given that you represent rural municipalities in Saskatchewan, I'm just wondering.... I mean, we know that, of course, land use decisions are provincial and fall under municipalities—they are creatures of the province. Can you maybe talk a little bit about how farmland is being preserved from that encroachment in Saskatchewan? I think you'd have a unique perspective. Do you see any role that the federal government can play in preserving that valuable farmland, given that we're talking about the theme of food security and how integral land is to that question?
President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
In Saskatchewan, we don't have policies in place that actually protect [Technical difficulty—Editor]. We know that our Alberta neighbours do. They have a program that, I think, has more concerns about some of the larger cities especially, but we don't. I'm sorry that I can't help you with that.
However, we are aware, across Canada, that there are about 55,000 acres—so, in hectares, it would be about 25,000 hectares—every year that are taken out of agriculture production and used for urbanization. The City of Saskatoon here, which is the largest city in Saskatchewan, does have a policy now where it's not going outside. It's actually redeveloping some of the areas inside of the city, so I think the land use policy that the City of Saskatoon has is a good one.
I don't know if that directly answers your question, but it's the most information I can give you.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Yes. It's always interesting. I come from British Columbia, where we're all familiar with our provincial agricultural land reserve. Just across the street from where I live, in fact, it's preserved to ensure this. I was just curious. We all acknowledge it's an important one, so if there are any roles that the feds can play....
I want to take something that you also talked about, farm debt and how it's been growing since the 1990s. It calls into question the sustainability of many Canadian farms.
Maybe I'll turn the question to you, Mr. McCann, because you were talking about the fact that we need productivity growth in Canada to address many of these problems. Could you maybe talk a little bit about how the growing farm debt ties into that conversation and how we as a committee need to address that if we're going to tackle the issue of growing our agricultural productivity? How do we do that when so many farms are carrying so much debt, and it has been growing at a pretty significant pace since the 1990s?
Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
It's always important to start talking about debt by putting that debt in context. Debt in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It enables producers to invest in their business. It enables producers to buy land, buy equipment and machinery. Yes, debt is growing, but we're seeing asset values increase as well. The net worth of many farms increases at the same time.
Therefore, I think the debt needs to be taken into context. It really is about how we ensure that our farms are profitable at the end of the day. Productivity increases are enabling our farms to be more productive and profitable at the end of the day. It can enable them to better service the debt they have.
Clearly, when you look at the technology, the advances that are coming down the pipes, we do need profitable farms that are able to invest in those resources to be able to put them into practice. We've talked about the potential to reduce fertilizer emissions. A lot of the equipment that is needed for that is quite expensive, and farms need to be able to handle that debt, be able to take that on. They need to take it on knowing that, again, it's going to be productive debt. It's going to be debt that will enable them to make investments that pay down that debt. It enables them to grow and continue on.
The story of debt and agriculture is a complex one, but today if you look at what farmers are doing, their practices, the investments they're undertaking, these don't seem to be holding them back. That's a good thing for the country and for people around the world because our farmers are making the investments they need to be more productive, to be more efficient and to continue to grow.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I'll save the next question for the next round. Thanks.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you very much, Mr. MacGregor and Mr. McCann.
It's the Conservatives' turn now.
Mr. Shields, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to the witnesses here today.
I think when we started with Mr. Orb, he sort of expressed some things that I would suggest.... The big gamblers are not in Las Vegas. The big high rollers are out on the farms because they leverage themselves with everything they have—for the seed, the fertilizer, the equipment—to be able to start the season. Then, they hopefully get some return months later.
When you talked about fertilizer and the costs, I thought 4R was a pretty widespread principle that a lot of people are practising, because fertilizer is expensive. In the world you're connected with, Mr. Orb, do you find that the 4R principle is pretty well understood and being used significantly?
President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
I think the 4R principle is better known now than it was previously. Our provincial government has endorsed it, so our Minister of Agriculture here in Saskatchewan talks to many producers about that.
Many producers are already doing that—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Mr. Orb, my apologies. I've stopped the clock. I think we have a bit of a technical issue with some of our translators.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
The interpreter is signalling that what's being said is inaudible.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
We're going to just check this. I'll look to the clerk to do that.
I'm sorry to have interrupted you, Mr. Orb, but why don't you try to continue? It looked like there was a bit of a glitch in your Internet, but why don't we try to continue and we'll see where we go from there?