Evidence of meeting #41 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tim Klompmaker  Chair, Chicken Farmers of Canada
Ihor Michalchyshyn  Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
Yves Ruel  Associate Executive Director, Chicken Farmers of Canada
Michael Laliberté  Executive Director, Chicken Farmers of Canada
Orest Zakydalsky  Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
Katrina Coughlin  Partner, Gowling WLG (Canada) LLP, As an Individual
Ian McFall  Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Poultry and Egg Processors Council
Roger Pelissero  Chair, Egg Farmers of Canada
Tim Lambert  Chief Executive Officer, Egg Farmers of Canada
Jean-Michel Laurin  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Poultry and Egg Processors Council

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 41 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

I will begin with a few reminders.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee. Screenshots or photos of your screen are, of course, not permitted.

As a reminder to our witnesses who are appearing here today, you can toggle between English and French. I know we have some folks on the screen, whom I'll introduce momentarily, but even for those in the room, there is interpretation in the two languages.

I would ask that when you are speaking, you speak slowly and clearly, and when you're not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

Finally, I remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'm informing the committee that the following witness has not completed the required connection test. This is Taras Kachka, and I know we're working to try to see if he is able to join, but there's been an inability to make sure that the test did happen.

We do have some substitutions today, so I'll welcome Ms. Collins on behalf of Mr. MacGregor. Welcome to the committee.

For Monsieur Perron, we have Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay.

Welcome to the committee.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you for having me.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Mr. Nater, you weren't on my list, but you are here on behalf of Mr. Steinley. It's great to see you again. We had you last week, so you're becoming a regular.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, November 21, 2022, the committee will resume its study of the Ukraine goods remission order.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses for the first one-hour panel. We'll see whether or not Taras Kachka, deputy minister of economy and trade representative of Ukraine, can join us as scheduled. The invitation was sent.

From the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, we have Ihor Michalchyshyn, executive director and chief executive officer; and Orest Zakydalsky, senior policy adviser. You are joining us on the screen. Thank you and welcome.

From the Chicken Farmers of Canada, we have Tim Klompmaker, who is the chair; Michael Laliberté, the executive director; and Yves Ruel, associate executive director. Welcome. I would be remiss without mentioning Nick de Graaf. He's one of my constituents.

I wanted to make sure you were on the record, Mr. de Graaf, so you'll be forever in the Hansard, so to speak, of the House of Commons. Thank you for the work that you do in Kings—Hants.

We're going to allow up to five minutes for opening remarks from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, from the Chicken Farmers of Canada and also from the deputy minister, if he can join us.

I'm going to start with Mr. Klompmaker.

It's over to you for up to five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Tim Klompmaker Chair, Chicken Farmers of Canada

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Tim Klompmaker. I am the chair of Chicken Farmers of Canada. I operate my chicken farm in Norwood, Ontario, with my family.

As one of Canada's 2,900 chicken farmers, I usually speak about agriculture, but as you can appreciate, I am not an expert in geopolitics. I condemn the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, and I support that Canada is helping Ukraine. Our country cannot be inactive against this aggression.

We appreciate appearing today regarding the Ukraine goods remission order.

Chicken Farmers of Canada was never consulted on the government's decision to implement this order. When we first learned of it, we reviewed the list of eligible countries that export meat products into Canada, and noted that Ukraine was not included. As such, it was clear, at that time, that the remission order would not be applicable to the Canadian chicken sector.

In mid-July, we learned that a CFIA audit of the Ukraine meat inspection system and the animal health controls governing the production of poultry meat products took place in 2018-19. As indicated in the CFIA's testimony to this committee on Monday, no further activity has taken place between the conclusion of that audit and its recent work to develop the export certificates that would permit the export of Ukrainian meat to Canada. Given the past few years of uncertainty related to the global pandemic, and now seeing that there's a war in Ukraine, this urgent desire to issue the export certificates, despite the risks associated with Ukraine's critical infrastructure, is both questionable and concerning.

Food safety is a top priority for Canadians and for Canadian chicken farmers. Our on-farm food safety program enforces the highest food safety standards. It is third party-audited, and 100% of our farmers are certified. Although we do not know exactly the specific conditions of the infrastructure and the resources available within Ukraine, the daily news on the war provides us with reasons to be concerned about the present performance of their animal health and meat inspection practices, as well as the capacity of CFIA to verify whether these practices are as they were during the 2019 audit. It is reasonable to expect that the situation has changed since 2019.

In a United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization report on the impact of the war, from July 2022, it was noted that Ukrainian “livestock producers lack physical and economic access to animal health supplies, including commercial veterinary drugs, animal feed and feed additives.” Such a statement from the FAO about the state of animal health and welfare, as well as the capacity of meat-processing and meat inspections systems in Ukraine, concerns us.

It is our understanding that our largest trading partner, the United States, which conducted its audits of the Ukraine poultry and meat system alongside CFIA inspectors, has delayed its decision regarding Ukraine's export permit until the war is over and it can reassess the state of Ukraine's food safety infrastructure.

We have also noticed that no cases of highly pathogenic avian influenza have been reported from Ukraine since January 2022. Of course, we want to hear that countries are, indeed, free of avian influenza. However, given that most countries neighbouring Ukraine have made frequent and recent reports of avian influenza, we see good reason to question this. When Russia, Poland and other surrounding countries are facing cases of avian influenza, it leads us to further question the current animal disease surveillance and reporting system in Ukraine. As Canadian chicken farmers are dealing with the stress of ongoing cases of AI, and the associated movement and trade restrictions based on the World Organisation for Animal Health requirements, we strongly want to ensure a level playing field and prevent any further AI spread.

We understand the need to support Ukraine, but we want to ensure that Canada's efforts do not undermine the food safety of Canadians and the credibility of CFIA.

The reports on the destruction of infrastructure such as electricity and water supply—so critical to animal and food safety—and the cases of avian influenza reported surrounding Ukraine lead us to believe that their industry is not operating as it did during the 2019 CFIA audit. In addition, the recent push from CFIA to finalize export certificates without any follow-up visits to the country, given the significant losses to their infrastructure to assess these systems, seems like an unusual practice.

We thank the committee for allowing us the opportunity to present our views on the Ukraine goods remission order. We once again urge the Government of Canada to refrain from issuing the export certificates until a comprehensive intelligence program is put in place to monitor the ongoing integrity of Ukraine’s veterinary and critical infrastructure. We sincerely hope that Canada will continue to help Ukraine without putting the food security of Canadians and the reputation of our food import system at risk.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you, Mr. Klompmaker.

We'll turn to the Ukrainian Canadian Congress.

Either Mr. Michalchyshyn or Mr. Zakydalsky, I'll turn it over to you for up to five minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Ihor Michalchyshyn Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress

Hi there. It's Ihor Michalchyshyn. I'm the executive director of the UCC. I'll be providing the remarks under the UCC. As you mentioned, Orest Zakydalsky is with me as my colleague here.

Thank you for the invitation to address this committee. Our organization is the voice of Canada's Ukrainian community. Our congress brings together an umbrella network of national, provincial and local Ukrainian Canadian organizations and has been leading and coordinating the representation of the interests of our community since 1940. We have worked in shaping Canada's social, economic and political landscape, and in that capacity, we're pleased to be here today.

Certainly, the people-to-people ties between Canada and Ukraine go back more than 130 years, when the first Ukrainians came to Canada looking for a better life, mostly as immigrants who began their work as farmers. Ukrainians have played a key role in building Canada's agri-food industry ever since.

Of course, I have to stress that my colleague and I are not experts in trade or agriculture, but we are here to provide the committee with some geopolitical context for the study of the Ukraine goods remission order as it relates to duty-free and quota-free imports of supply-managed goods into Canada.

As you may know, on February 24, Russia launched an all-out assault on Ukraine. For over nine months now, the Ukrainian people with their armed forces have bravely defended the country from Russia’s invasion. More recently, the Ukrainian armed forces have liberated thousands of square kilometres of territory held by Russia and taken by Russia in the first weeks and months of the war. With western military and economic assistance, we believe the Ukrainian people will continue to defend their freedom and their country.

However, the cost of Russia’s war has been devastating. Unable to defeat Ukraine on the battlefield, Russia has undertaken a campaign of terror bombing and missile strikes against Ukrainian civilians and civilian infrastructure. According to recent estimates, 97% of Russian air and missile attacks have been aimed at civilian targets, and through this process, Russia has murdered thousands of innocent people, as well as severely damaging the economic infrastructure in Ukraine.

The economic costs are devastating. Ukraine's gross domestic product dropped by 30% during this past year. The state budget is running a monthly deficit of approximately $5 billion, and next year it will be a $38-billion deficit. Obviously, 50% of next year’s budget is planned to go to defence and security.

In the first days of the war, our American allies urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to leave Kyiv, the capital, then under Russian assault. His now well-known response to everyone was “I need ammunition, not a ride.” In order to keep the economy and government functioning, President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people also need assistance with hard currency.

In helping Ukraine to keep its economy working, Canada’s government has adopted the Ukraine goods remission order, providing relief through a series of import duties on goods originating from Ukraine in order to provide stimulus for economic activity. The UCC and our community strongly welcome this initiative by the Government of Canada. Another such example is the new Ukrainian sovereignty bond, which was successfully completed for a $500-million call yesterday.

In our view, Ukraine's victory in the war is not only in Ukraine's national interest or Europe’s strategic interest, but also in Canada's national and strategic economic interest. We believe that supporting Ukraine’s victory is a cause that all Canadians—individuals, organizations, the public sector and the private sector—can get behind. We also know from opinion polling from September that 77% of Canadians believe the Government of Canada should be doing more to provide assistance to Ukraine.

These hearings are focused on the poultry industry, which employs about 100,000 people in Ukraine. The opportunity to export their products to Canada is certainly important and invaluable in assisting their industry to sustain itself and provide economic activity that is so vital to keeping the economy going.

We hope this committee will hear from our community, from the Government of Canada and from other interests and will take all measures to provide assistance to the Ukrainian people to ensure a victory.

We thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee, and we will be happy to answer any questions at the appropriate time.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you very much.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Chair, before you continue, I'd like to advise you that the interpreter informed us during the witness's testimony that she was able to proceed with the interpretation solely because she had a document provided in advance. Otherwise, the poor sound quality is making interpretation impossible. Consequently, we won't be able to speak with Mr. Michalchyshyn.

You told us at the start of the meeting that the necessary checks had been done, Mr. Chair, but there appears to be a problem.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

I understand.

I have a note here, Mr. Michalchyshyn, asking you to raise the boom on your microphone.

I'll ask that you say a few words, and we can try to get from our interpreters whether we can translate moving forward. If not, then we won't.

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress

Ihor Michalchyshyn

I have a microphone that I've used for previous parliamentary committees, and I did a sound check yesterday.

Can you hear me?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

I'm still getting thumbs-down.

Can we make sure your headset is actually plugged into the computer? Can you maybe unplug it and re-plug it and see if that makes a difference? You can also check that it is indeed your headset and not your audio speakerphone from your computer.

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress

Ihor Michalchyshyn

I have just unplugged and re-plugged the headset into a hardwired computer that I'm using.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Could you make sure your microphone is indeed selected on your computer?

I apologize. I'm working at the behest of my translating team here in the room to make sure they're satisfied.

4:45 p.m.

Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress

Ihor Michalchyshyn

I have the headset selected, but if there's a problem, my colleague Orest can take over.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

I'm getting the signal that unfortunately there is some issue. I don't know what it is. If your colleague can answer when our colleagues ask questions of the UCC, that would be appreciated.

We will turn to questions.

Mr. Barlow, I'll start with you for up to six minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I certainly appreciate the witnesses here. I do want to stress that I think all of us on this committee want to do everything we can to stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine. We understand the challenges Ukraine is facing. Certainly for many of us in western Canada, the immigrants from Ukraine 100 years ago helped establish the agriculture industry in our provinces. At the same time, our job here is to protect the integrity of our own food supply, which is part of the reason we are here.

I want to start my questions with one for Mr. Klompmaker or his team.

I want to be clear. In your testimony, you said you were never consulted by AAFC or the Department of Finance with respect to supply-managed chicken specifically being included in this remission order. Is that correct?

4:50 p.m.

Chair, Chicken Farmers of Canada

Tim Klompmaker

That is correct. There was no consultation at all.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

We heard from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada witnesses on Monday that there have not yet been significant volumes of chicken imported to Canada.

For clarification, my understanding is that the reason this hasn't happened is that initially chicken wasn't included in that remission order, but now that export certificate will perhaps be signed imminently, and that will open the door to chicken imports into Canada. Is that correct?

4:50 p.m.

Yves Ruel Associate Executive Director, Chicken Farmers of Canada

Yes. The remission order is for all goods, so technically it does include chicken. However, chicken is not yet permitted for import into Canada because CFIA has not concluded its study on issuing import certificates for products coming from Ukraine. That's why we're bringing this to the committee's attention, to look at the food safety aspect.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

The other thing in Monday's testimony that I found interesting was that there was no economic impact analysis on what this certificate could mean for our supply-managed sectors, specifically chicken; it could be minimal.

Have you heard from importers in Canada or exporters in Ukraine about what interest there would be in importing chicken from Ukraine should this certificate be signed? What potentially could be the impact of that?

4:50 p.m.

Michael Laliberté Executive Director, Chicken Farmers of Canada

Thank you.

We've been made aware that two importers in Canada have been putting pressure on CFIA to issue those export certificates.

I was here on Monday and I heard about the volume. I think if there is pressure to have those certificates, it means that significant volume can actually come into Canada.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

The other question we asked.... Surprisingly, before you make a decision on this, I would hope you'd have that answer. What is the volume of chicken produced in Canada compared to the amount of chicken produced in Ukraine?

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Chicken Farmers of Canada

Michael Laliberté

They produce slightly more than we do here in Canada. The exception is that they export 40% of their market outside of Ukraine.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

The other question my colleagues asked on Monday that Finance or Trade couldn't answer was regarding a threshold. They said that if they saw the imports get too high, they would put a stop to that. When we asked what that threshold would be and whether they thought it would be a good idea to have that threshold set ahead of time, they couldn't answer.

What is your position on not having a threshold? Also, in your opinion, what would that threshold be in terms of a line that we cannot cross?

4:50 p.m.

Associate Executive Director, Chicken Farmers of Canada

Yves Ruel

First, our main concern is on food safety, so I don't think any threshold is even worth discussing. We're concerned about a country having the capacity to do proper inspections and to conduct proper analysis on animal health and care and the food safety of products.

We care about food safety and all of the repercussions it can have on the credibility of the Canadian food supply and the Canadian food system overall.