Agriculture Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Ms. Ireland, you heard me provide the example of a truck driver who picked up cattle and was moving them a distance. Let's say it was about 10 hours, in terms of the distance between the feedlot and the processing facility, whatever the case might be. The driver is 75 kilometres away. They're at 12 hours and 55 minutes, under their ELD time. The definition allows security of the load, so the truck driver is sitting there saying, “Okay, I think it's important. We want to be able to finish this trip.” There is no rest station, which you referenced, in either Thunder Bay or Hearst. They're out in western Canada.

From an animal health perspective, does it make sense, necessarily, to stop for the required rest time and keep the animals on a trailer, or would it be more beneficial to animal health to finish the load in that time? That's part of the nuance here. I'm trying to understand that. If it's 30°C on a hot summer day and the truck has to pull over for a certain period of rest—I'll reference eight hours, but it may or may not be; I don't know the specifics—that doesn't sound like it could be very beneficial to the animals.

What advice, as a veterinarian, would you give in that situation?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

The flexibilities we show at CFIA under the humane transport regulations focus on unforeseen circumstances. A driver will understand where they are and where they're going, the number of hours and where the rest stations might be. They need to plan around those elements. I'll say again that transporting livestock is very complex, because we have animal welfare, public safety and driver safety in play. Coordination and communication are essential for these requirements.

Now, if you ask me about pulling over on a hot, humid day, that is not optimal, because, as I mentioned, airflow is needed. There are other ways a truck can cool. Certainly, inclement weather such as snowstorms would be one element under the humane transport regulations that our inspectors might look at to determine whether they went over their feed, water and rest time and whether it was warranted. We would look at the other factors I mentioned. Was it really unforeseen or could it have been better planned?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Ms. Ireland, I appreciate that. I am not contemplating a situation over the feed or rest time. I am contemplating a situation where the ELDs come into play. I appreciate your answer, because what you said is that, particularly in certain circumstances, as opposed to keeping the animals on the trailer, there could be a situation where animal health is “not optimal”. Those were your words.

The final question I want to ask is, how do we find a pathway forward from here, in your view?

Perhaps this is for Ms. Vanstone.

As parliamentarians, we are engaged by industry and different groups all the time. That's our work, regardless of whether it's agriculture or another industry. I found the testimony from the industry relatively compelling, because they're not necessarily seeking a section 16 exemption. They're not asking for a regulatory or legislative change. They're asking for what I found to be either a policy statement or further guidance specific to the situation I just illustrated for you.

Transport does not seem willing to go down that path. I received letters on this before Christmas, so that would have been in 2022. We're almost a year on.

You mentioned that the CCMTA has not necessarily convened to provide that document. When is that going to happen, and how can we get the Department of Transportation, federally, to start driving that conversation at that convening level, in order to provide this guidance? I think it's important to make sure there is some certainty in there.

I took note that you said it already exists, but the industry feels it doesn't, so we have an issue that I think has become very technical. However, we want to try to get a resolution for the benefit of those in the industry and those, of course, on your side. We're trying to make sure there is certainty in the regulations.

[Melanie Vanstone]

Thank you for the question.

I hope you don't mind, but I want to begin by ensuring there is clarity on the fact that the electronic logging devices did not change anything with respect to the required hours of service and how they should be recorded. They simply make sure drivers are recording those hours accurately. Hours of service have not changed since 2007. The industry.... When they're using a paper log, the expectation is that these would have been recorded the same way.

The CCMTA program committee meetings are happening next week, and we expect this discussion will happen at those meetings. Again, the scope to look at the guidance is still within the parameters of the regulation itself, so that would be the context of that discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Just to be clear then, under section 76 right now of the regulations where there is provision for maintaining the security of the load, that would extend to situations where animal welfare for unforeseen circumstances would be in jeopardy. Drivers who are in a situation of an unforeseen circumstance, which is not defined, although I take note that there is some definition or certainly some elements that have been raised at this committee.... A driver who is in a situation where they are up against their 13 hours and it is important for them to finish the security of their load, which Ms. Ireland just said could be a situation where it's not optimal to maintain livestock on a trailer, that would qualify as a situation where a driver could finish and go certainly above what the regulations allow for about an hour.

[Melanie Vanstone]

The definition of adverse driving conditions in the regulations means snow, sleet, fog or other adverse weather or road conditions that were not known to a driver or a motor carrier dispatching a driver immediately before the driver began driving or could not reasonably be known to them.

That is the definition in the regulations, so that's the core of how section 76 needs to be interpreted with respect to the guidance.

I would also note from a regulatory perspective that within the regulations there are limits on driving time as well as on duty time. The driving time is 13 hours, and two hours can be added in adverse conditions. For off-duty time, you can also defer two hours of off-duty time, so that accounts for things like loading and unloading where you would not be driving but you would be on duty.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay, but adverse conditions would not consider a situation of unforeseen circumstance as it relates to the actual loading of the cattle.

[Melanie Vanstone]

It's other adverse weather or road conditions. That is the definition within the act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay. Thank you, colleagues, for allowing a little bit.... As you can see, I took an interest in this, and I wanted to make sure that we get the questions on the record.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Vanstone from Transport Canada, thank you so much for taking the time this morning.

Dr. Mary Jane Ireland from the CFIA, thank you again. You have been a regular witness but have important testimony and thank you so much.

Colleagues, we're going to move in camera to talk about what we've discussed on ELD, some of the motions that have been presented and the direction of our committee.

We will suspend momentarily, move in camera and we will go from there.

[Proceedings continue in camera]