Agriculture Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[Melanie Vanstone]

Thank you.

I appreciate the question, Mr. Chair.

Yes, there have been a number of exemptions since 2020. There was the exemption mentioned for the fertilizer industry. We have an exemption related to the oil and gas industry—

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Has there been any exemptions for livestock?

[Melanie Vanstone]

No. The exemptions are done on the basis of an application to Transport Canada by the industry. We have had a number of conversations with the animal transport industry to advise them of how that process works and have welcomed them to submit an application to Transport Canada based on the requirements of the exemption. We have not received an application to date.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I'm just wondering—and I'll go to CFIA this time—how closely you work with Transport Canada on these exemptions. Has there been any communication or coordination between the two departments to ensure this is consistent?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

Yes.

Thank you very much.

In the development of our own humane transport regulations, we did consult with Transport Canada to make sure that our humane transport regulations and their regulations do in fact work together, and they do.

When this issue was brought up by industry, we certainly did engage with Transport Canada. We have been present at the discussions with industry, because I think we bring an important perspective, not only with our experience with live animal transport, but also in terms of how we've clarified the rules for the same group of stakeholders in our journey and our implementation of amended regulations.

We are engaged with Transport. Our organizations are in discussion about this issue, but Transport has a rule around public safety and driver safety. That is their area of expertise and regulatory oversight, and ours is around animal safety. They are not mutually exclusive. These rules have to work together, and we have to consider the spectrum of animal safety and welfare, as well as driver and public safety and welfare.

Thank you.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

I'm just wondering, through Transport, if there have been any technological advancements or solutions—and this could be for CFIA as well—on the animal welfare. Have there been any advancements in monitoring the livestock during transportation that may alleviate some of these pressures or the exemptions or what have you that may cause concern for CFIA?

I guess there are two parts there.

[Melanie Vanstone]

I'm not aware. It's not an area that Transport Canada would monitor explicitly in terms of the load that's being carried. We do have responsibilities at Transport Canada when it comes to dangerous goods, but not with respect to live animals.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Ms. Ireland, do you have any comments?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

Yes. Thank you very much.

Anyone who transports animals is required to ensure their safety and welfare. The regulations are a combination of prescriptive and outcome-based. The transporters are required to monitor their load, and make sure that the animals are doing well in the trailers and that, when they on-load and off-load, their safety and welfare is first and top of mind.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I'm wondering, too, on the provincial government's part, what issues they have raised. Are they similar to the issues that this committee has raised, or are they quite different regionally? I can speak from living in Prince Edward Island and hauling hogs to the former Olymel plant in Quebec. That has now changed, and that has changed since 2020.

I'm wondering, what will the procedure be for those farmers if they have to exceed, basically, the requirements that were in place prior to Olymel closing?

[Melanie Vanstone]

I would start by noting that all provinces and territories, through the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators, work on developing and continuing to update the national safety code. Those are safety standards that apply to the commercial vehicle sector, and they are intended to ensure that both the federal regulations and provincial regulations for intraprovincial carriers are harmonized.

There are differences in the regimes. Provinces within their sphere of regulatory responsibility may provide different rules and exceptions within the boundaries of their jurisdiction. So that does exist. But when it comes to application of the federal regulations, we work closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts to develop things such as the enforcement guidance, as I mentioned before.

I think there's a general understanding that we adhere to standard 9 of the national safety code. There is no objection from our provincial and territorial colleagues, considering that code was developed collaboratively through a federal, provincial and territorial process that we adhere to—standard 9 of the national safety code.

I would also note that within the —

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Ms. Vanstone, unfortunately, we're at time.

Mr. MacDonald might have another chance, or his colleague Mr. Louis.

Our next speaker will be Mr. Perron.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us. We are very grateful.

I'm going to start with Ms. Vanstone.

We've heard from previous witnesses from the livestock transport industry, particularly cattle feeders, that amending subsection 76(1) of the commercial vehicle drivers hours of service regulations was presented as a possibility in your discussions with them.

If I understood your previous answers correctly, amending this subsection could be a fairly onerous and time-consuming task. You mentioned the regulatory process, Treasury Board, the Canada Gazette, and so on.

How long could the amendment take?

[Melanie Vanstone]

Typically, a regulatory process would unfold over a few years.

There are, typically, what we call pre-regulatory consultations to ensure, even before we publish a proposed regulatory amendment in Canada Gazette, part I, we have done outreach to the industry and to any other relevant stakeholders. Then there's the publication of a proposed regulation in Canada Gazette, part I, with a comment period. It might take, let's say, up to a year or two from the pre-regulatory consultations and then, typically, another year before you would review comments and do the final publication in Canada Gazette, part II. Typically, two or three years is a full process.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

So it's a very long process.

Previous witnesses have told us that providing more detailed guidance in the short term could solve the problem of time constraints in certain unforeseeable circumstances. You also discussed this with my fellow MPs who asked you questions earlier.

Do you think it would be possible to provide guidance in a short period of time? Could that be a solution?

These same witnesses explained to us that what they wanted already exists in certain sections of the regulations, but that the wording was very general. They are afraid that with the existing provisions, some inspectors may be less flexible than others in their interpretation. The result could be that fines are given on a random basis. The witnesses would like these provisions to be made clearer.

In your opinion, would it be possible to do that? If so, how long could that take?

[Melanie Vanstone]

With respect to any changes to the guidance itself, that's more, I would say, a straightforward process in some regards, but it is important that the guidance still be consistent with the intent of the regulations themselves. The guidance could not surpass the parameters set out in the regulations.

It would be difficult to say. Probably because it's developed through the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators, there is a need to work towards consensus. It's difficult to estimate what kind of information and how much time that might take, but it is not as administratively complicated as making a change to the regulation itself.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In the event that consensus is reached quickly, we would still be talking about a few months. We could act much more quickly.

Is my understanding of the situation correct?

[Melanie Vanstone]

At minimum, I would believe it would take at least a few months, yes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Okay. That's a little more encouraging, because sometimes things take forever.

I have another question for you.

Representatives of the National Cattle Feeders' Association told us that they shared their concerns about the flexibility they need and that they were told by your department that it is not in Transport Canada's mandate to be concerned about animal welfare. However, if I correctly understood what Ms. Ireland was saying earlier, your two departments are cooperating on this file and animal welfare is indeed an important factor.

I know that it was not you personally who replied to the association, but do you not find it troubling that the association is being told that animal welfare is not part of Transport Canada's mandate? We were disappointed with the answer given to the association's representatives.

How does that work? How should Transport Canada have reacted? Should they have contacted CFIA on this issue?

[Melanie Vanstone]

Thank you for the question.

I think the intent of the answer is to say that the work we do at Transport Canada is derived from our legislative and regulatory authorities, which are focused on road safety and commercial vehicle safety. We are not mandated to put in place regulations or rules with respect to animal welfare and safety. I think that is the intention of that response. We have included CFIA in our conversations with the industry to ensure that those perspectives can come together as part of those conversations.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Ms. Ireland, I'd like to wrap up this issue with you.

Your organization and Transport Canada are working together to change the interpretation of section 76 of the commercial vehicle drivers hours of service regulations.

Can your two organizations get the work done quickly? Should there be good communication between you two?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.

As my Transport Canada colleague has said, we have regulatory frameworks. Mine pertains to avoidable animal suffering as it relates to animal transport, and hers relates to public safety and driver safety. As I said, these are both areas of requirement that are needed. These two regulatory frameworks work together, and we and Transport Canada do work together, particularly on an issue that intersects like this one.

We have been in discussion with Transport Canada. We have listened to industry, and we have come together, all of us, to have several discussions about this issue.

CFIA remains available to continue to work with Transport Canada, with industry, to find solutions to issues related to animal transport.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you both very much.

We'll now go to Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of you for helping guide this committee through a pretty narrow focus.

Dr. Ireland, I'd like to start with you.

We previously heard from witnesses that with livestock trailers there's a certain requirement for a minimum amount of airflow. When you look at the hours that certain livestock are allowed to be loaded onto a vehicle, what previous witnesses have told us is that you can't just have those trailers stationary, because the ventilation systems won't work properly. I guess some witnesses were concerned that the requirement for airflow may require a driver to be put into an uncomfortable situation.

How do your inspectors generally monitor the airflow requirements in trailers for livestock?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

Thanks very much.

To give you an example, the feed, water and rest interval for cattle able to eat exclusively hay and grain would be 36 hours. From taking food and water away, transporting them and providing them feed, water and rest, for a more mature beef cow it would be 36 hours.

Transports have different ways of ventilating. Some are open-sided with slats. Some will have probably not as many fans or abilities to mist and cool animals.

Yes, on a hot and humid day, I would be concerned about not having a trailer moving, because the ventilation for some of the species would be important. On cooler days, there are other ways to manage ventilation.

The requirement in the regulations is really that animals have proper airflow and that they maintain their proper temperature. For transports, there is, at times, the ability to stop, but it depends on the weather and a number of circumstances. That is why we have given CFIA inspectors interpretive guidance, so that they can use their enforcement discretion with respect to the requirements for those feed, water and rest times.

When unforeseen circumstances occur and a truck operator demonstrates that decisions have been made in the best interests of animals, the guidance we have provided and the training we have provided to inspectors, which industry has been involved with and is aware of, allow them to use some criteria, such as whether the incident is an infrequent occurrence, whether it is due to an unforeseen circumstance or it is reasonable under the circumstances, whether the animals are suffering, and whether the animals are being monitored.

Our inspectors use judgment, and they look at the situation in its totality and determine whether enforcement and compliance actions are required or whether some discretion is merited.