Agriculture Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Vanstone, you heard the testimony from members of the industry at our previous meeting. Where do you think the disconnect is between the regulators and the industry here?

They seem to be unhappy with the current situation. Some are saying it's as simple as interpreting section 76 on what an emergency is. You're saying the preferred route should be something made under section 16 of the act.

Do you want to weigh in on where you think the disconnect is here?

[Melanie Vanstone]

I think we've had some very good conversations with the industry. I would start by saying that, and we continue to be open. We met with them just a few weeks ago. That was our last conversation. We are very committed to continuing the dialogue.

I think there are two different processes that we are speaking about. Changes to the guidance have to be within the parameters of the regulations themselves, which are quite clear that section 76 talks about adverse conditions and unforeseen circumstances. The fact that you're carrying livestock or the fact that there may be a delay at the border and some of these other things to some extent are foreseeable. There are typically certain types of delays and different points, and these should be included in contingency planning. I think we are happy and I think my provincial and territorial colleagues would be happy to talk to the industry about other types of scenarios that may be applicable in terms of clarifying the guidance.

It can go only so far. If there are other unique needs that go beyond what could be accommodated through clarifications to guidance, then that is where a section 16 exemption process may be more appropriate to respond to the unique needs of the sector. We have invited the sector to submit an application if they feel that would be a more appropriate way to address their unique needs.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned that you've been having conversations with the industry. Do you think the fact that a standing committee of the House of Commons is now looking into this issue will help move those conversations along to a conclusion?

[Melanie Vanstone]

I think we've been having excellent conversations with the industry. I appreciate the opportunity, Mr. Chair, to come and speak today about that and about the regulatory framework that we have implemented and administer. I look forward to hearing the recommendations from the committee.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I'll leave it there, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll now turn back to the Conservatives.

Is it Mr. Barlow for five minutes?

Yes. Go ahead, please.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to take a minute of my time here to put a notice of motion on the table that we can discuss later. I want to get it on the record for our next study on the grocery CEOs and the ministers.

You have been given a copy of the motion. I'll read it into the record. We can discuss it later. I think it's important that we include some of the documents from the ministers.

My motion reads as follows:

That, given the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry’s broken promise to come up with a plan to lower food prices for Canadians by Thanksgiving and the correspondence distributed to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food on October 10, 2023, from the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry and the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food requesting the re-opening of hearings into Canada’s high grocery prices, that the committee order the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, the Minister of Agriculture and AgriFood and the Minister of Finance to table by December 1, 2023, all records including briefing notes, analysis and emails on plans to lower grocery prices and to request that they appear before the committee to explain how their plan will lower food prices in Canada.

I will move that motion at a later time, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to get that on the record.

Turning to the witnesses, thank you both for being here. We do appreciate your expertise.

Ms. Vanstone, you say that you're having great conversations with industry, but this has been going on since 2017. I think the time for conversations has long passed. I guess I'm a little frustrated with the pretty unanimous positions or concerns raised by industry and different aspects of the industry. We sent a letter to the Minister of Transport almost a year ago asking for some changes to be made. We weren't even given a response, let alone any changes to address some of these concerns.

I think the solution here is pretty clear.

Ms. Vanstone, has the Minister of Transport ever given you or your department any direction to try to resolve this situation and come up with maybe an interim policy while changes to section 16 are worked through? Has any direction been given to you by the minister?

[Melanie Vanstone]

With respect to the conversations and the work we've done with the industry, we continue to look at the existing flexibility and the existing exemption process within the act. We believe there is a significant amount of room to work with the industry within the existing framework.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

If you agree with that, then what is the holdup to adding some clarity to what seems to be either inconsistencies, or maybe not inconsistencies, but some objectiveness within the guidelines? What is the holdup that you aren't able to come up with a policy or strengthen this policy or have a little bit more clarity in this policy to address the concerns that have been raised?

[Melanie Vanstone]

Thanks for the question.

As I mentioned previously, the questions with respect to the enforcement guidance have been referred to the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators, which is responsible. Collectively, Transport Canada is working with our provincial and territorial colleagues to look at that guidance.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

We had some representatives here at a previous meeting from Humane Canada and World Animal Protection. They described our animal transportation industry as being littered with “systemic issues”, as being “poorly organized”, and as having a “limited” inspection regime from CFIA.

Would you agree with those sentiments that logistics and planning aren't going into this and that it's very poorly managed? Would you agree with those comments?

[Melanie Vanstone]

I would simply say that I believe the regulatory regime provides significant room and flexibility for all commercial motor vehicle operators and drivers to plan accordingly and to be able to drive safely within the context of the hours of service rules.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I have one last question, really quickly.

You mentioned that we're kind of trying to get more of an alignment with the United States. The United States has that exemption. You said there was one fatal accident. Do you know how far past their hours of work or distance it involved?

I understand what we're trying to do here, but I'd say we're never going to have zero accidents. If they've made a change that works in the United States.... They've had one accident. That is unfortunate, but it's one accident. We're never going to have zero.

Do you have some details on what happened in that accident?

[Melanie Vanstone]

Yes. I would clarify that it was one accident that was investigated by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. We don't have statistics on all potential accidents that may be associated.

The investigation found that the driver had less than a six-hour opportunity for sleep the day of the crash and regularly worked 70 to 80 hours per week. When they're within the exempted 150 air-mile radius, they can work essentially.... There are no regulation or hours of service requirements at all under that exemption. Essentially, a driver who's staying within that radius would not have a limit other than what their employer—

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

So he didn't break any of the rules. Okay.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Vanstone. Thank you, Mr. Barlow.

We'll go to Mr. Louis for five minutes.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. I appreciate the time. All questions will be through you.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I think it's important to have this conversation. You bring good perspectives. We all want to make sure that our drivers are safe. We want to ensure that people on our roads are safe, and we want to minimize accidents. We want to make sure that animals are treated safely. I really appreciate both of you being here.

I'll start where the last person left off.

Ms. Vanstone is the director general of multi-modal and road safety programs.

There have been requests to harmonize Canada's laws with those of the United States. The U.S. has that exemption. You said that a U.S. livestock trucker can drive unlimited hours within the 150 air-mile radius. You mentioned concerns about that. I've spoken to livestock trucking companies who admitted that could be problematic. In your opinion, what effects could that have on public road safety for our truckers and for people on the roads?

[Melanie Vanstone]

Our primary concern from Transport Canada is ensuring the safety of our roads. One of the key ways we do that is to mitigate the risk of accidents related to fatigue. That is the entire purpose of the hours of service regulations. A very large exemption of this nature would allow for a significant increase in the risk of fatigue. If drivers are able to consistently exceed what we think are regular limits and not get the rest that they need, then they would be able to get overfatigued.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Do you think the term “unlimited hours” could be a bit extreme?

[Melanie Vanstone]

It's not consistent with the science and evidence of what is required to maintain safety from a fatigue perspective.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

In the United States, they started in 2017 to operate with ELDs. Have you heard how often livestock truckers would need to drive beyond those hours of service? Do we have any data?

[Melanie Vanstone]

I'm afraid I do not have any data available to me right now with respect to the U.S. situation.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

You mentioned that provincial authorities enforce the hours of service. How has the enforcement affected commercial drivers handling livestock? Do we have data on how often truckers can find themselves in this situation?

Do we know what type of training law enforcement agencies get? You talked about the severity of the animals in care.

[Melanie Vanstone]

I do not have any data. That's held by the provincial and territorial enforcement authorities. I don't have any data at this point specifically with respect to ELD and animal transport.

We do work, again, through the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators, to help work on consistent training and guidance material for those enforcement officers.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you for that. I appreciate that.

Maybe this would be a good time to pivot to Dr. Ireland from the CFIA.

Your job is regulating the humane transport and treatment of animals.

You mentioned a contingency plan template, and said that livestock truck transporters need to have contingency plans. Can you tell us what type of measures are included in this template?