Agriculture Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, Minister MacAulay. It's good to see you here.

I also want to ask about the AgriRecovery fund.

Specifically, in my province of British Columbia, large parts of the interior have been experiencing drought. In my own region of Vancouver Island and the Cowichan Valley, the price of feed went up. A lot of farmers who were relying on forage crops essentially couldn't water. It caused a lot of trouble throughout my province.

Now, your ministry received a message from the B.C. ministry on July 27. You released a news release on August 21, designating the regions and the different provinces for which you were working on joint AgriRecovery assessments. It wasn't until October 18 that a $219 million announcement came.

Minister, I understand that you have agreements with the provinces with AgriRecovery. I don't want you using provincial governments as a crutch or an excuse.

Given the fact that climate change is a reality, that this is now a feature and not an exception, and these problems are going to get worse, I want to know how you are going to take more of a leadership role in future years to make sure that this program is more nimble and responsive.

When you look at this timeline, you get a message in July and a payment coming out in October. When I'm speaking to farmers, I'm hearing that's not a very fast timeline when they're dealing with that kind of a financial crunch.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. MacGregor, I certainly appreciate your question.

Sometimes, as I've said, it would be good to look at some of these programs but, of course, what we have to do as a government is.... The province has to tabulate all the difficulties, all the things that qualify for the program. Then they send it to Ottawa.

We have to follow the criteria that's established with the provinces and territories. We don't have the flexibility to do what we want either. It's decided at a federal-provincial conference as to how these programs work, and we must follow it too, so that's what we do.

I have to say, Alistair, that I have a great rapport with your Minister of Agriculture. I've talked to her a number of times. Just to highlight that, I called her one day when I thought she was going to a fire, but instead of that she was going to a flood, which pretty much explains what a situation we are in, in the world.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes. We know. Thanks, Minister. I just need to get to other questions.

When I look at the mandate letter that was given to your predecessor, the Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau—it's now two years old—and I compare that with what other countries are doing, I think there's a decided lack of ambition in that document. I don't think it's commensurate with our agricultural place in the world.

Let me cite two examples: Australia has a national soil strategy; Denmark has developed an organic policy framework with a goal of making sure that 60% of all food in public kitchens is organic. These are countries that are leading the way.

I've talked to the organic sector. I went to the Organic BC conference in Penticton a couple of weeks ago. You can see the benefits in terms of less reliance on expensive inputs, greater resilience in the face of climate change, and higher profit margins for their farmers.

Where is your ambition in trying to match what other countries are doing when it comes to making our farmers less reliant on inputs and to making sure we have some kind of a national soil strategy, so that we're really unleashing the potential it has in helping our farmers deal with climate change?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course the health of soil is extremely important. Being a farmer, I'm well aware that if you don't have the proper soil and, as a farmer, if you don't take care of it, of course you have a financial problem.

Since 2021 we have announced $1.5 billion to help farmers adapt practices and technologies that will reduce greenhouse gas emissions and improve soil health. Of course, with that, you know we have hired more scientists. It's so vitally important that we deal with....

We're not beyond learning from other countries too, of course. If there are examples that will help improve the conservation of the soil, capture emissions—any of this—we're very interested in them as a government, and I know you are too. We're wide open to it.

There's an end to the financial input by government. There's always—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I would just respectfully interrupt you, Minister.

I was on the convention floor in Penticton, speaking with organic farmers from all across B.C. Yes, you got the funding announcements, but I think they're looking for something more that's commensurate with their growing importance, not only in our market but also in international markets. Yes, there is funding, but we don't see a national plan to really build their sector up. That's what they're looking for. They respect farmers from all walks of life, but they simply want that respect afforded to them that's commensurate with their place, not only in the domestic market but also the growing importance in the international market.

When you look at a small country like Denmark and the fact that it has such an ambitious policy goal, where is Canada in matching that kind of ambition?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

You're no doubt aware that we established a working group with the sector. I think if you check with the sector, previously when I was here, establishing the standards for the sector, we worked very hard to put that in place.

I have dealt with the sector previously and will be more than pleased to deal with them again. I'm fully aware that we export about half of what we produce in the organic sector, but we also import a lot of organic products, so of course the market is wide open.

When you look at agriculture and farming in particular—farming and ranching totally—the opportunities are endless. When you look at biofuels, or no matter where you look, it looks to me like the future is great. That's good to hear as a farmer, and I am and always was a farmer. I think that once a farmer, well, you are always a farmer.

We have to make sure we're able to capture these. Any extra input that you have, I'm wide open to hear, because we want to learn from other countries too. Farmers want to learn. That's why we created the living labs, which you know all about, I'm sure. These are so important so you get the example of what takes place. Farmers are very resilient. They know. They're innovators.

The organic sector.... I was not an organic farmer, but I'm well aware of what they do. I fully support them, and I want to support them, because the opportunities are basically endless.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We'll have to leave it there, gentlemen.

Thank you very much, Mr. MacGregor and Minister.

We'll now turn to Ms. Rood for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here.

Minister, you keep saying that you're a potato farmer. I come from a potato farm, and we know we love our potatoes. You would know, then, that potatoes come in plastic bags, and right now there is a P2 plastics ban by your government, which wants to eliminate the use of plastics in all produce.

The Supreme Court has struck down the plastics ban that this government has already tried to put in place. I am wondering if you are prepared to back down on this proposed plastics ban for the produce sector.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course I'm not big on backing down on anything, unless it's wrong, but I know what happened. We're looking at the situation and evaluating what path the government will take as a whole. How we deal with this issue is not wholly my decision.

There are many issues in the plastics sector. Do we have the packages to deal with it down the road? All of this we are dealing with as a government. We have goals set. You have to set goals if you want to get anywhere in dealing with climate change or anything else in life, and we have a goal to deal with plastics too.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Minister, but I would suggest that they need to be realistic goals.

Through you, Chair, Minister, I'm not sure if you're aware, but more than two-thirds of all produce that we consume in this country is imported, so this plastics ban will have a dramatic effect on the fresh supply of fruits and vegetables. It has the greatest impact on our largest trading partner, the U.S. This is a potential food security issue that's being created because of your government's own policies.

I am just curious as to whether you've actually engaged with our largest trading partner, the U.S., on this. Do you not think this would be a trade issue with other countries?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

Yes, I have discussed it with the American ambassador, and of course no matter what you do in life, there are concerns when you put programs in place. When you look at what's taking place in our waters around the world, though, and the problem with plastic, I think you would agree that we have to make an approach or make a move in order to clean this up. That's, in fact, what we want to do to make sure that on this planet we have a place to live, that the fish have a place to live. That's, in fact, what we're trying to do.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Minister, but I would argue, through you, Chair, that Canadians need to eat. While we all care about the fish and we care about the environment, we all need to eat.

Minister, the single-use packaging ban will stop perishables and limit the exports into Canada. I would suggest that perhaps, last week, when the Prime Minister was in California and met with produce growers, the Americans and Canadians brought this issue up to the Prime Minister.

We are part of a global supply chain in this country, Minister, so as of right now there is no large-scale option or alternative to plastic packaging. Given that our food supply chain is global, what are you going to do to protect fruit and vegetable growers' ability to get their product to market without actually increasing food costs, which could be as dramatic as 25% or even 30%? Canadians are struggling right now to afford groceries, so an extra 30% on produce and fresh food would be catastrophic to a lot of Canadians' ability to buy food.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course I fully agree that we do not want to do anything that's going to increase the price of food. As I've said, I think my honourable colleague would agree that we need to deal with the plastics issue. It's three or three and a half years out, unless the decision is made to change it, and we have to make sure that we set targets and meet them. If you do not set targets, you will never meet your requirement.

What we as a government want to do is to make sure that we deal with the plastics issue. I think everybody would agree that plastic was great, but it's become a big issue. We certainly want to make sure that we don't pass anything down that will hurt the farmer, and that we do not add to the price of food.

There are other ways to package and—

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

This is going to dramatically increase the price of food, and you are going to pass this down to the farmer.

Packaging plays an absolutely critical role in fresh produce. It protects produce during transportation and consumer handling, and it reduces food waste. We haven't even talked about how much food waste this plastics ban would actually make in this country. Plastic packaging allows for a wide range of products from across Canada and the world to travel to remote communities without significant food waste.

Again, there is no commercially viable alternative. We are part of a global supply chain, so until the rest of the world gets on board with this plastics ban, we are going to starve Canadians when two-thirds of our produce comes into this country. We can't grow two-thirds of our produce.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We'll have to leave it at that, Ms. Rood.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I appreciate it.

We'll go to Ms. Taylor Roy online for five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister MacAulay, for being here this morning. It's always a pleasure to see you. I'm sure that in 35 years of service you've gone through many of these.

I was just reflecting, as I was hearing some of the questions, that one member is saying we're not ambitious enough and need to do more to change, while another member is saying we can't change, because this will cripple our industry. However, change is happening. To some extent, it's being forced upon us. Fighting pollution and greenhouse gases is so important to the future of our country and the industry. I know we've faced tough times with recent natural disasters, from wildfires to floods. We all know climate change plays a part in making these events more severe.

Therefore, I was wondering, Minister MacAulay, if you can tell us how the government has been supporting farmers in the face of natural disasters and climate change.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

Of course, farmers are very concerned about climate change. They're on the front line of this issue, and they mostly take the brunt of it, too. That's why it's so important that we work with provincial and territorial governments right across the country and establish programs that will help them deal with many different issues.

Two weeks ago, I was in Winnipeg. We announced $9.2 million for the canola cluster. With the province and the canola cluster, I believe it ended up being around $16 million or $17 million. This is, of course, to deal with the climate change issue. These programs are put in place, let's say, to develop new seeds and capture carbon. There are so many things involved in the programs we announce. There's always a climate part to the program.

Of course, farmers want us to do this. They understand that when you have winds of over 200 kilometres an hour.... I'll give you an example. On P.E.I., it near blew us off the map. Winds of over 200 kilometres an hour blew down dairy barns. You talk about the price of food. There are so many issues around the price of food with the Russian invasion.... However, if you blow down dairy barns and kill the dairy cattle that are in the barns.... Of course, it's important that governments deal with this issue. I can assure you that on P.E.I., people are fully aware of how important these programs are.

No matter what province it is.... Whether it's in British Columbia, Newfoundland or wherever we work with provincial governments—or in the north, which is suffering more on the climate change issue than the rest of the country—it's vitally important that we have everybody involved. I used the Winnipeg announcement because it involved the provincial and federal...and the Canola Council itself. It's vitally important that we continue on these issues.

I'd also like to say that, when I was minister previously, we established the living labs, which I was very big on. Living labs are opportunities for scientists, farmers and the industry itself to work together to see what.... Quite simply, if there's a new program that can help the climate and save money, farmers are going to accept that.

We know we have to deal with this issue. I was just outside of Calgary, and the pasture rotation.... My heaven, the way that's handled.... It was interesting to me, as a farmer. I think this rancher had about 11 different crops in the one field, right down to turnips at the bottom. They were going to be able to pasture that land for about 10-plus months of the year. This is the type of thing that's probably not overly expensive but that, working together, we can establish. Of course, a rotational pasture program means you have to put a mechanism in place. Ranchers have a lot of cattle, and you need to have automatic systems in place so they can shift.

These kinds of things, as I said, are pretty interesting to me, as a farmer. I never did it, but it's the right thing to do. It's interesting.

Thank you so much.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the work the government is doing to support farmers. I know we've had many here in committee before who've talked about our program and what it's doing. They're on the front line, as you said. I'm proud that we're supporting them as they're trying to make these changes, looking at things like substitutes for plastic bags, how to dry crops and grain and how to heat and cool barns as well.

Thank you very much for your work on this, Minister MacAulay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Taylor Roy.

Thank you, Minister.

I' m going to give the floor to Mr. Perron now, for two and a half minutes.

Over to you, Mr. Perron,

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In two and a half minutes of speaking time, I'm going to ask a short question, and if you are so inclined, Minister, you might give me a brief answer.

We're going to continue the discussion about the last answer that you gave me.

I am very pleased that you took the time to answer again towards the end of my comments and for saying that you were still requesting more funds. We won't be the only ones badgering the government for more funds. Thank you very much.

I have another question for you.

In your opening remarks, you spoke about supply, compensation and payments to adapt portions of the market. I'm sure you know that Bill C‑282, which was approved by your predecessor, Ms. Bibeau, is currently before the Senate.

I understood that you approved of it as well and that it is still part of your government's policy to ensure that there are no supply management bankruptcies, and that you would like this bill to be passed as quickly as possible.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course, I can only agree that we want to adopt it as soon as possible—

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That's tremendous. Thank you very much.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

—because we support the program.