Agriculture Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Champagne, I have only two and a half minutes, so I would ask you to keep your answers short, if possible.

I want to come back to the Competition Tribunal. You once again referred to the Rogers-Shaw merger. Basically, you are saying that you agree that more work needs to be done, despite the passage of Bill C-56, and that you are going to work on it.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

That's right.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Excellent.

When it comes to the grocery code of conduct, you are saying that you are going to do things right. You said before that you will commit to doing things properly with the provincial ministers so that the code of conduct is applied everywhere at the same time and so that it will work.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We are already working with the provinces. I spoke to Minister Lamontagne from the Government of Quebec. My colleague, Minister MacAulay, is also in contact with his department and Mr. MacAulay's predecessor, Minister Bibeau, also worked with the Quebec minister. We are working hand in hand because we have the same interests.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Today, during the discussions with the Conservatives, you said that you have met with a lot of major grocery suppliers. Did you also meet with the smaller ones like market garden farmers? What did they tell you?

Please answer in 30 seconds.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I met with people from the Union des producteurs agricoles. I met with independent grocers, of which there are 4,900 in the country. That is why I am a bit surprised by the questions from our Conservative colleagues. I don't understand their line of questioning. People are unanimous. They are telling us to continue this fight, to amend the Competition Act and to continue to strengthen it. For example, we took measures to make the data on food input costs clearer. People are telling us to keep doing what we are doing with Option consommateurs in Quebec and with Équiterre. We need to have the same consumer advocacy culture that exists in Quebec across the country.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

You mentioned that you wanted to extend the unit price requirement to the rest of the country. That really needs to be clear on labels and it needs to be easy for people to read, a bit like what we saw with the recent labelling reforms. Perhaps we need to adopt something like Nutri-Score in France, which gives a letter that is easy to understand.

Don't you think that if you make a labelling change, then you need to take the time to do that right and make all the necessary changes? It is important to remember that something like this costs the industry a lot of money.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

In the end, what is important for consumers is to be informed. I looked at what is being done in France.

Often, the reason that people at home, and even I myself as the person in our house who does the grocery shopping, are frustrated is that they do not have any information about shrinkflation or skimpflation. For example, they may be wondering whether the box of pasta they are buying still contains the same number of grams that it did six months ago. That is a problem.

I trust people. Consumers are informed individuals, but we need to give them the information. I think that there is a shortage of information. Take, for example, shrinkflation. When people tell me that the information is there, then no one goes back home to look—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Perron, unfortunately, your time is up.

Now we have Ms. Idlout for up to two and a half minutes, please.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq.

I'd very much appreciate if you could keep your responses brief, as I have quite a few questions that I would like to ask you.

I'll be asking questions mainly about the Nutrition North program.

Northerners have been ignored for years when they've complained that Nutrition North doesn't work. It has taken a university study to nationalize the issue. The report from the university has said that only 67¢ of a dollar of the subsidy goes towards consumers.

Is it your intent, as the minister, to keep subsidizing these greedy CEOs instead of northerners?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

First of all, I want to say thank you for the question.

I spoke to the independent grocers association and I also had a chance to speak to a number of grocers in northern and rural regions. I come from rural Canada, so I'm very familiar with it, though not exactly the north where Nutrition North applies.

There are a number of issues around Nutrition North and I know that my colleague, the Minister of Northern Affairs, is seized with that. I know he's looking at that, because the impact of food prices is not equal across Canada. Whether you're in a major urban centre where you have more competition or in rural—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm so sorry to interrupt you. I have more questions.

I was in one community where there's the Northern Store, which received a subsidy, as well as a local co-op, which also received a subsidy. The Northern Store sold a dozen eggs at $6.49. On that same day in that same community, that local co-op sold a dozen eggs at $3.99.

Having heard this, do you think that Nutrition North is working?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You're highlighting an issue. That's why we need to look into that. I can tell you of another issue that I've heard that was very concerning to me.

During COVID-19, I heard that some suppliers would prioritize supplies to the large banner stores, as opposed to the independent grocers. I've even heard stories that independent grocers in smaller communities could not get the same goods, but you could find them in one of the large stores, which is very concerning. That would mean that people have been prioritizing the relationship—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Just very quickly.... You're not answering my question.

I just want to ask one more quick question with a quick fact.

The Northern Store received $67 million in subsidies to run the Nutrition North program. In that same year, they showed a profit of $119 million. Do you think Nutrition North is working?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We're at time, Minister. I know this doesn't fall directly under your portfolio, but give a quick response, and then we're going to move on.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I think what you are highlighting is part of the issue the Minister of Northern Affairs is looking into.

I would say that it's a good suggestion for the committee to also look at this issue, because nutrition in the north should be a study by this committee. I think it is worthwhile. Like you, I've heard stories that concern me. It would be a wise use of time for this committee to look at the issue—the impact of nutrition in the north and supplies of goods in the north.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Minister, unless you absolutely have to leave, we're going to hold you for five more minutes—two and a half from the Conservatives and two and a half from the Liberals—and then we'll go.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

How can I say no to Mr. Perkins?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We're making you work overtime.

Mr. Lehoux, you have two and a half minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello, Minister.

On June 13, the committee tabled its report on grocery affordability in the House. We brought in the five biggest retailers, with whom you met later in the year. On October 5, the committee received a response from the department, which indicated that you had been consulted before the response was sent. The very next day, October 6, you sent us a letter asking us to redo the work here in committee. I would imagine that you had time to read the report and the 13 recommendations, some of which were quite relevant.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

That's good. That means, Mr. Lehoux, that we are all working toward the same objective. I think that the committee has a role to play. I saw the letter from the chair of the committee about the grocery code of conduct, for example. That is a good initiative. We all have the same interests. You and I are here to defend Canadian consumers, and the work of the committee complements what I am doing as industry minister.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Minister, but I just wanted to tell you that, sometimes, one must be a little circumspect. I’ve been sitting on this committee for four years, and many recommendations were made to tackle higher grocery prices, but real action is sometimes slow in coming. So, I hope we will be able to accelerate the process.

You said you were a little tired of waiting when it came to the code of conduct, while two major chains aren’t currently participating in the process. So, when is the code of conduct coming? It has already been nearly a year since the first draft was presented at the end of April or the start of May. Are you ready to impose a mandatory code of conduct soon? The rest of the players are ready. Everyone is asking us for it, here.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I agree with you, and I hope that your voice will carry as far as mine today. People listen to us and I was very clear. There will be a code of conduct, one way or another. So, it is in their interest to decide to sign it—

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Minister, if they don’t sign it, they will have to be compelled to do so. If two major grocers aren’t complying with it, it’s not going to lead to anything.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

All measures are on the table. People who usually follow the committee’s proceedings understand that. If we don’t see any progress, we will take the required measures to establish a code of conduct in Canada.