Agriculture Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, you have six minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee, Ms. Mitchell.

In your capacity as the director of legal advocacy.... Well, first of all, I've been very interested in trying to see the different legal forms this policy position would take. We have Mr. Louis and the bill before the committee. We have Senator Dalphond in the Senate with Bill S-270.

I did ask the department whether they made any legislative forays, but they have not yet arrived at that position. It would have been interesting to have seen what the department came up with in terms of legislation.

Mr. Louis has taken the route of creating a stand-alone federal act. There are some pretty detailed requirements for declarations and so on, whereas Senator Dalphond decided to take a route where he's amending an existing act, the Health of Animals Act. His bill is quite simple. It's just simply that no person shall export from Canada a horse or other equine for slaughter.

I'm wondering if you could inform the committee, with your expertise, of your opinion on the different approaches in order to help us better understand whether amendments might be necessary and what legal route might be the best way.

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

I fully support the bill as drafted. That said, I fully supported Senator Dalphond's bill. I think I was quite vocal to that effect at the time he introduced it. I am aware that there are other requirements around paperwork when you are exporting horses. My hope would be that this declaration can fit into the existing scheme without adding too much for the folks we've heard from today, who are exporting horses for other reasons.

However, as I said in my written brief—and I'm happy to give more information—I think you could also amend the bill and take out the requirement for a declaration entirely and still see the same end goal. That's really what we're concerned about. With these shipments, as I said, it's not one horse at a time or two horses at a time. We're talking about huge shipments of horses leaving airports in western Canada, generally by Korean Air Cargo. With a ban in place, I really can't see those shipments continuing to leave.

It really wouldn't be a concern for me. Whether it's the bill as drafted or it's a pared-down version of it without the specific paperwork requirements—I don't know if those are concerning—I think either would be fine.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I want to turn for my next question to Equestrian Canada.

I was listening to the opening statement and your concern about unintended consequences of this bill and the delays that might come up. I am assuming—and correct me if I'm wrong—that if competitors from foreign jurisdictions are visiting Canada with their show horses and competition horses, you're worried that even though they're not originally from Canada and are here for a competition, they may be caught by having to sign paperwork, even though at first glance it's quite obvious that the horses are not designed for slaughter.

Am I reading you right, or can you go into a little more detail there? I'm really trying to explore what specific amendments might be necessary from your point of view.

[Melanie McLearon]

I think it's about any additional administration that's required. In the case of foreigners coming and then having to export their horses out, any delays that might be caused due to either a misunderstanding or, as we've been discussing, the number of hours a horse might have to sit in prescribed crates on the tarmac or in the airplane itself can cause increasing welfare concerns. With the way the bill was written when we first read it—and I know it's gone through some changes—it said very clearly that some sort of letter signed by the minister would have to be delivered directly to the pilot. That seemed to be the kind of clarification we were looking for. For any delays at the moment of transportation or delays in paperwork that might be additionally required for those coming and going or returning, anyone's schedule would be highly affected given the dates you need to be at a different competition by in order to give the horse time to acclimate to the new location.

There are many different consequences. I could go through different scenarios. The one you mentioned is one of them.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You also mentioned that you'd like to see a transition plan. The bill as it's currently written has a coming-into-force section of 18 months. When it comes to a transition plan, are you asking this committee to consider an amendment specifying a requirement for a transition plan that speaks to people who are breeding horses for slaughter and offering financial support? Are you asking for that kind of specificity to be inserted into this bill as part of a transition plan?

[Melanie McLearon]

Well, that could be one option. We definitely didn't feel it was outlined that there would be any kind of transition plan. There was no form of support.

Our main concern is around the horses that are currently being raised for that purpose. What will happen to them in a transition of 18 months without specifying any other additional supports? To us, that potentially leaves things open for other concerns to happen that we don't think are planned for. We want to make sure they are.

I'm not a legislator so I don't know what you can do to put that in, but if there was a way to indicate that it needed to be done, we would support that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you, Ms. McLearon and Mr. MacGregor.

Ms. Rood, you have five minutes, please.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mitchell, you mentioned in your comments earlier that standards for horses going for slaughter are different from those for horses going for sporting events. However, we heard from the CFIA and the CBSA that those are exactly the same standards. In fact, flights do not always have to make a stopover for refuelling. There are direct flights that go across the ocean.

I haven't seen you provide new scientific data anywhere to back up what your assumptions are, so I'm wondering about that. Is it fair to say that you doubt the expertise of the CFIA and the Canada Border Services Agency in regulating and enforcing the safe transport of live horses?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

The health of animals regulations are not different for different types of exports. My position and the evidence are that, in practice, the way horses are exported for slaughter is different.

On the point about refuelling, I have never seen a shipment of horses that has left Canada for Japan that has not refuelled. Generally, they refuel in Alaska. Occasionally, there are other locations. My understanding is that due to the weight of the aircraft carrying so many horses, they do refuel. If there are examples where they haven't, I'd be very interested to see that, but certainly I've never seen an instance when that hasn't happened.

On the point about scientific evidence, I come before you as a lawyer, absolutely not as a scientist—I'm the first to admit that—so what I would say is that you have a brief before you from 34 leading veterinarians and animal welfare experts. I commend that brief to you. We've also put forward a more extensive report that sets out some of the scientific concerns, and I commend that to you as well.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you very much.

Just to clarify once again, of all the veterinarians who signed that brief, only two were not small animal veterinarians. The rest of them were small animal veterinarians. It sounds like your objections to this bill, Ms. Mitchell, are not grounded in science but rather in a love of horses.

Why ban the whole practice entirely? Why wouldn't you just advocate for increasing the standards? Have you ever been on any of those flights? Have you witnessed the landing and the treatment of the horses while they're en route?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

On the point about the letter's signatories, my understanding is that this is incorrect and many of those signatories do, in fact, have specific expertise when it comes to horses and horse welfare. There are also a number of professors from—I'm just going by memory here—the University of Guelph and other institutions who are themselves animal welfare experts. In any event, I can't google all their names at this moment so I won't give you specifics there.

In terms of whether or not to simply improve the regulations, as I mentioned earlier to MP Perron, the very nature of this transport, shipping 100 or 80 horses—whatever the number is—from feedlots in very rural areas in Canada to all the way overseas, is incredibly stressful and incredibly risky for these animals. Our position is that it is unnecessary suffering.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

However, you don't have a problem with them being shipped over there for sporting events. It's yes or no; it's a simple answer.

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

Well, I don't know enough about the way they're shipped for sporting events to have a position. I do know that they're shipped in much better—

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

They're shipped exactly the same way they are if they're going to slaughter, and we heard that from testimony in the previous hour.

I just point out, for context, that there are over 15,000 practising veterinarians in Canada, and in the letter that was submitted by 20 veterinarians to this committee, only two of them were equine veterinarians or have experience with actual horses. The rest were small animal vets for dogs and cats.

With my last minute, I'll turn to Equestrian Canada. I'm just wondering if you could tell us how significant the sale of horse livestock for processing is to an owner's cost recovery.

[Melanie McLearon]

I'm sorry, but I can't answer that because our jurisdiction covers only active equines in Canada, so nothing in the food sector. Sport and recreation are what our jurisdiction covers.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

You have no data to support any kind of cost recovery for your folks when these horses are at the end of their careers.

[Melanie McLearon]

Do you mean when a sport horse goes for slaughter?

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Yes.

[Melanie McLearon]

No, we don't track data on what end-of-life plans happen for any sport horses, as typically it's done with their veterinarian and doesn't go through the same type of...for the horses we're talking about today.

I'm sorry. We don't cover that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you, Ms. McLearon.

Ms. Taylor Roy, we're going to you for five minutes.

I want to let you know that we're voting in about two and a half minutes. If everybody is okay, we'll let Ms. Taylor Roy finish her five minutes, and then we'll vote after that. That will get us close to one o'clock.

I won't have to interrupt you, Ms. Taylor Roy. Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here.

Thank you, Ms. Mitchell, for being here in person. I'm sorry I'm not there today.

I want to go back to some things that have been stated as fact. My daughter is an equestrian and is familiar with both racetracks and the competitive world.

I do not know of any horse person or horse person who competes who would transport their animal, whether for breeding or competition, according to the standards that are set for both. Obviously they're the same whether it's equestrian or horses being transported for slaughter, but I don't know of anyone like that.

I know you're from both the racetrack and equine sector. I'm wondering whether you have ever heard of someone from that sector transporting three or four horses in a small wooden crate that go for 28 hours without food or water. Could you address that? If you have any anecdotes, that would be great.

That's for either Ms. McLearon or Ms. Curry.

[Katherine Curry]

I can certainly answer that.

I'll use Woodbine racetrack as an example because that's the largest one in Canada. Generally, between 15 and 20 horses will come in to race over the course of a racing season. Usually they come in groups of two or three. There are some that come in on private planes.

These horses are in padded stalls. They are bandaged up. They have straw under their feet. They are given access to food and water throughout the flight. They sometimes travel with a vet the whole way. It is a very different experience from what is being described here today.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Curry.

How about you, Ms. McLearon? I've never seen it in my experience, but mine is limited to my daughter's world. I'm sure you've seen a lot more.