Agriculture Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Shannon Nix]

As I noted in my opening remarks, this is a complex issue, and as you've stated, we've spent a considerable amount of time studying it and talking to stakeholders.

In the intervening period, obviously we have had this bill in front of us. We've turned our attention to watching its progression through the parliamentary process, understanding the impacts it could potentially have should it be the will of Parliament that it pass and being ready to provide advice to the government on how to implement it in such a way that mitigates any unintended consequences.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm sorry. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. I want to be clear. You have been observing this bill's progress through the parliamentary process. It's still very early. Is that to say that AAFC, in the meantime, did not develop its own draft legislation or was not considering that? Were you going to rely purely on a private member's bill to execute a ministerial mandate letter? I just want to be clear on that.

[Shannon Nix]

To be clear, since the mandate commitment was given in December 2021, we have spent time doing our due diligence to better understand the sector, to better understand the implications of a ban and to meet with implicated stakeholders. In that intervening period, the bill in question today was tabled.

We've turned our attention to following that bill and understanding the implications so that we're better able to provide advice to the government should it be the will of Parliament to have it implemented.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Colleagues, the vote is going to happen momentarily. I'll seek your guidance on this. It has been suggested to me that we allow every member to vote virtually. When we're satisfied that everyone has cast their vote and we're good, we can proceed while we have officials here in order to be efficient with our time.

Is that how we would like to proceed, on a UC basis?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay. We'll do that.

The vote is now up. I'll give everyone a couple of minutes. We'll confirm people have voted and we'll proceed from there.

We're going to suspend for two minutes and then we'll come back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I call the meeting back to order.

Colleagues, we'll continue, with everyone's consent. Are we all good?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay. I'm going to go to Mr. Steinley for up to five minutes, please.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'm going to make a quick comment on one of the points Mr. MacGregor made about the 20 veterinarians who sent a letter to this committee. Of those 20 veterinarians, only two were not small animal vets. The other 18 were vets of cats and dogs. When we look at that, I'm not sure if that is exactly the point being made. I just want to make everyone aware that a lot of those vets don't actually work with horses or large animals.

I want to focus my comments around consultations, because Ms. Nix said she consulted with the provinces.

Who has consulted with indigenous producers, like the members of the Métis Nation of Alberta, who will be disproportionately affected if this bill is put through?

[Shannon Nix]

At the department, we have consulted with both the Métis National Council and the Manitoba Métis Federation. In addition, we have consulted with one Métis producer in the province of Alberta.

We've also consulted extensively with government officials from British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, and, as I noted in my opening remarks, with exporters, feedlot operators, freight forwarders and animal welfare consultants.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you for that.

What was their input? What did the Métis nation breeders in Alberta say? Did they support this bill or not?

[Shannon Nix]

They appreciated that there was an indigenous component to this. A number of indigenous people participate in this industry. I think there wasn't a strong sense of understanding the order of magnitude of how many indigenous people participate in this industry.

Obviously, there were concerns with—

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I don't have a lot of time. I appreciate you tap dancing.

Was it a yes or a no? Did they support this bill or not?

[Shannon Nix]

I would say they raised concerns with the bill.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

I will move to the CBSA.

My colleague talked about some of the onerous tasks that are going to be foisted upon you. Did the government consult with the CBSA at all on this bill? Are they aware of how much more responsibility the CBSA is going to have if this bill goes through?

Is there a cost to that? How much extra cost will there be, if this bill goes through, for all the extra work you're going to have to do?

[Graeme Hamilton]

We've had ongoing discussions for almost the past year with representatives from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada and CFIA. Because this is a private member's bill, CBSA was not consulted specifically on the language within the bill, but we have been consulting closely with the department and the agency—in particular since the bill has been tabled—in looking at how we would start to administer the framework as described within this particular bill.

It's really difficult for us right now to determine what the associated costs would be for the implementation of this at the agency. Some of it is just going to be what this does to the market itself, if the bill does have the effect of reducing the number of live exports of horses. Obviously, that would factor into the amount of resources CBSA would need to apply in order to enforce this legislation as drafted.

There are lots of factors that go into that, but the work is still in very early days. There's an 18-month implementation in the bill. Once it receives royal assent as drafted, it wouldn't come into force for the following 18 months. During that period, we would anticipate concluding the work of understanding how this will be enforced at the border.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you for that.

I'll just do a follow-up. There are still going to be many other horses transported, not for slaughter but for sports, for athletic events, for the Olympics, for showing and for breeding purposes, so that will put an extra onus on your employees. That will have a large effect, and they will need to do a lot more.

Do you believe that in 18 months they could be equipped to handle these extra tasks? I ask because horses will still be transported, just not in one specific area.

[Graeme Hamilton]

You're absolutely correct. I think Ms. Nix quoted some of the stats earlier in her testimony. Thousands of horses are exported annually. This is something we would continue to work through to try to determine how our resources would be allocated against this new enforcement priority for the agency.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

You did mention about 10,000 horses are exported to the States each year for various other reasons. Are there data points on how many injuries have occurred with animals being exported by truck and trailer?

[Graeme Hamilton]

On this particular one, I would defer to my colleague.

[Shannon Nix]

I don't actually have that information in front of me. I'm happy to take that back to the department and see if we have information on injuries sustained.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I appreciate that. If you could bring that back so the committee could see it, it would be an interesting way to compare.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Steinley, and thank you, Ms. Nix.

We'll now turn it back to the Liberal side with Mr. Louis or Mr. Carr.