Agriculture Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate everyone's patience throughout our voting.

I also appreciate my Conservative colleagues comparing horses to other companion animals, like cats and dogs. That's one of the reasons Bill C-355 is a stand-alone bill specifically targeted to end this practice and ban the export of live horses for slaughter. It does not affect any other sector. Putting food on the table I fully support.

I would like to direct my questions to Dr. Ireland, who is no stranger to this committee, from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

There is a big difference between the conditions for horses exported live for slaughter versus those for breeding horses, racing horses, horses for pleasure riding or horses for non-competitive entertainment. From my understanding, I think there's only one airline left that will export live horses for slaughter. The other airlines are no longer interested in doing that.

Is there any way that exporting live horses for slaughter could be mistaken for the exporting of breeding horses, racing horses or horses ridden for pleasure or competition?

[Dr. Rick James-Davies, Director General, Western Operations, Canadian Food Inspection Agency]

I'll take that for my colleague Dr. Ireland.

The standards and requirements are the same. They're laid out in legislation. Our veterinarians apply them every day. They speak to stocking density. They speak to the conditions of the animals in transport. To a question from earlier, whether individual exporters are exceeding those or not because they're simply not moving as many animals, that is certainly a possibility.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I appreciate that answer. That is a distinction. You're saying the standards are the same, and what this bill is doing is changing legislation to change this practice.

The conditions don't necessarily have to be the same. We'll hear from Racetracks of Canada Inc. and Equestrian Canada; they're coming up. Would you say those conditions are quite different in the transporting of horses?

[Dr. Rick James-Davies]

I would come back to the existing legislation that allows permitted activities. Our veterinarians are there to monitor that every day, as my colleague has said. Our veterinarians are there on the farm when the loads are prepared. They're there at the airport when the trucks arrive for the crating of the animals, up to the final loading of the aircraft. As we've touched on earlier, any significant events causing death or mortality are reported back to us.

Our veterinarians apply those regulations fairly and transparently. Our veterinarians do a very good job of balancing the legislative requirements and their own professional ethics and beliefs, with the default being the protection of the horses that are travelling by air.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

You say that the CFIA has no control once the plane lands in another country. Does the CFIA accompany the planes overseas, or is it more like at that point, when wheels are up, the CFIA has no way of verifying other than an honour system? It sounds like the exporters are supposed to report injuries. Is that correct? Is there no way of verifying other than an honour system?

[Dr. Rick James-Davies]

It is our expectation that those incidents are reported to us. The commercial shipments that go by air are accompanied by a member of the industry who has care and control of the horses, so they're certainly there to monitor the condition of the horses.

As Dr. Ireland has said, it is a very multistaff, complex activity where CFIA interacts routinely with industry and the people who are involved in this.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Is it truly an honour system? Do you have to wait to be told? Is there no other way of verifying if the horse was injured during the flight?

[Dr. Rick James-Davies]

It's a legislative requirement for them to report—

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Right, but it's not enforceable. You're enforcing exporting at this point. This is a long journey for a horse to go, thousands of kilometres, and it seems that about 95% of it is unattended and not overseen, which is something this legislation, if this practice were banned, would fix. That's no shot at what you're doing. You're there during many stages of this, but it sounds like when wheels are up, that's the end of what our country can do to enforce this. Is that correct?

[Dr. Rick James-Davies]

The legislation certainly covers the entire journey and sets the feed, water and rest interval at 28 hours. It sets a reporting requirement on the industries involved, as we've said, regardless of end use. That's currently our legislative requirement, and we would expect industry to comply with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Louis.

Thank you, Mr. James-Davies.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to go back to the CFIA officials.

There is a lot of talk about transport conditions. Some people may exceed the standards, but I've understood that your regulations are well monitored.

That said, given all the complaints and protests from so many people about the transport of animals by air, has the CFIA looked at raising the transport standards? Have you ever worked on that, either in a committee or in some other way?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

As I mentioned earlier, the regulations were amended and published in Canada Gazette, part II, in 2019 to come into force in 2020. They reflect and reflected at the time the best available science, information and stakeholder feedback.

As a regulatory authority and as a science-based organization, we continue to monitor information and science, and if we consider the regulations to be outdated or requiring additional measures, we always contemplate that. We would consider the additional information and make amendments if appropriate.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much for the clear answer, once again.

If Bill C‑355 were to be passed, it would require people who export horses for purposes other than slaughter to provide a certificate proving that.

If I understood the opening statements correctly, this type of certificate already exists, so would it really increase the administrative burden?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

We are obviously following the bill as it moves through the process, and we will discuss implementation. The agency will work towards the full implementation of any new rules or laws that fall within its mandate.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have only a few seconds left, so I will end with a question I've been wondering about. If the government instructed the minister, in her mandate letter, to make this change, why is it being done through a private member's bill, which will be dealt with less quickly?

I can always ask the next panel.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much. That may be less of a question than a comment or an open question.

Mr. MacGregor, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Nix, I'd like to turn to you to drill down into your consultations. We heard that last year's export was approximately 2,600 horses, at a value of approximately $19 million. How many farms or individual breeders are those 2,600 horses coming from?

[Shannon Nix]

I believe it's somewhere in the order of 350 different individual breeders.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Out of those 350, does the department have a breakdown of whether these horse exports for slaughter are their primary source of income or a secondary source of income? Do you have those figures?

[Shannon Nix]

I don't have the specific figures in front of me. From our consultations, our understanding is that for the majority of them, the export is secondary to their overall farming business.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In their overall farming business, are they raising other animals primarily?

[Shannon Nix]

They are raising horses and possibly other animals.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Then the majority are using this as a secondary income source stream.

[Shannon Nix]

That's our understanding from the consultations we've conducted.