Evidence of meeting #94 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was horse.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch , Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I noted at the outset that data in this area is quite limited. We've conducted research on the horsemeat industry more broadly. It's not an area we had a lot of expertise in. We've examined the considerations with respect to a potential ban.
Consultations with various stakeholders have been very important to gain a better understanding of the impacts. We've spoken with representatives from industry, the provinces that would be implicated, animal welfare advocates and indigenous groups.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you for that answer.
As the sponsor of the bill, I've spoken to many stakeholders myself, including exporters. It sounds as if you did too. There are about four active exporters, and you said there are a few hundred producers and breeders.
Can you expand on the percentages? You said some are breeding for export but most are for other domestic markets. Can you give a sense of the scope of breeders selling horses? How much of that percentage-wise might be for overseas slaughter versus domestic?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch , Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
We know that about 2,500 horses were exported for slaughter last year, in 2023. Those were almost exclusively going to Japan. For context, last year we exported about 10,000 horses to the United States by land. About a tenth of those were for breeding purposes and the rest were for sport and recreation purposes. I hope that gives a sense of the differences.
I would also note that probably a couple of handfuls of horses have been exported to countries other than Japan and the United States. We think they've primarily gone by air.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
I think I'm good for now, because I would like to switch and there would be no time.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Okay. Perhaps we'll allow some additional time next round.
Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I sincerely apologize for not being able to attend the meeting in person.
The witnesses' expertise is very important. I especially want to extend my warm regards to Ms. Ireland, who often takes part in our meetings and has become a friend to the committee.
I have some questions about the transport conditions. I don't know which of the witnesses is in the best position to answer them.
Are the conditions for transporting horses exported for slaughter really different from those of horses that are transported by air for other purposes?
Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, and Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
That's a very good question.
The rules and regulations for the transport of horses by air—frankly, just the transport of horses—are not different depending on what the horse is going to be used for.
The requirements for a horse to be transported to another country for the purpose of a feedlot or food production are not different from the requirements for a horse being transported by air, for example, to an athletic event. The feed, water and rest time, or the interval at which an animal must be provided rest, feed and water during transport, is 20 hours regardless of the outcome for that animal.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you very much for your clear answers, Ms. Ireland.
I see the conditions are no different. However, people in the industry or people who want us to pass Bill C‑355 tell us that the transport conditions are vastly different. We are told that horses are in much smaller wooden cages, that several animals are placed together and that they have less room to move around or absorb shocks upon takeoff and landing.
I'm curious about cases where people transport animals in different ways. For example, when a person transports a horse to a competition alone in its crate and accompanied by someone, does that mean that the person has gone beyond the standards? Have I understood correctly?
Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, and Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Some horses may be transported individually and some may be transported together.
On the requirements of the regulations, for stocking density or space to avoid overcrowding, for example, our regulations refer to the International Air Transport Association live animal regulations, which outline specifically the square footage that each animal must be provided when being transported. They also require that the animals be compatible, and there are some elements of the container: how it should be built, what it should be made of and what the specific details of the container are.
The regulations in some cases refer to International Air Transport Association live animal regulations, but in the case of the spacing, they are quite prescriptive, depending on the size of the horse, obviously. The larger the horse, the more space per horse should be provided.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Okay. If I understand you correctly, Ms. Ireland, people who transport horses in individual crates are in a class of their own because they go beyond the standards.
You say there are standards for animal compatibility. This is a point that has been raised in a number of documents. People say that horses are placed together in transport crates without necessarily checking the animals' compatibility.
Are you telling me that there are regulations on this and that someone is checking? Are you instead telling me that some associations have regulations on this, but that they do the monitoring, not you? I don't know if my question is clear.
Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, and Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Maybe it's worth pointing out what CFIA does at the airport.
In this case, the CFIA at the airport ensures that animals are healthy, are fit to travel are not overcrowded and are compatible. We do a visual inspection to verify the horses can stand comfortably naturally and that they don't come into contact with their container cover when they're standing naturally. CFIA inspectors are present when the horses are loaded.
When I say that we ensure animals are compatible, we consider things like their size, making sure there is a relative uniformity in their size in a particular enclosure so that you don't have one very large animal and one very small animal, for example, which would cause issues during transport.
I think it's worth pointing out that CFIA inspectors and veterinarians are at the airport when the animals are off-loaded from the trucks, put into the containers and put onto a plane, to make sure they are fit to travel, are healthy, are not overcrowded and are compatible.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you for your clear answers. What you have just told us is very enlightening.
You check the physical compatibility of the horses, but their temperament and whether they're going to fight on the plane are very difficult things to assess in the few minutes before the flight. Have I understood correctly?
Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, and Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
These animals have been raised together. They have been transported on trucks together. They're off-loaded, and as they're loaded into crates, the loading staff and the CFIA veterinarians and inspectors—who, as I have mentioned, are present—work together to ensure the regulatory requirements are met: that they're compatible, that they have the right amount of space, that they're in containers that are appropriate and that they're fit to travel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you very much, Mr. Perron and Ms. Ireland.
I will now give the floor to Mr. MacGregor.
Just before you begin, we are going to run up against the vote, so I'll stop you 30 seconds before the vote to allow everyone to vote. I'll hold your time, and then we can make a decision on how we want to move forward.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
I was wondering if I could complete my six minutes, because there's a 10-minute voting period. Would that be okay?
Liberal
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for helping guide us through this study.
Dr. Ireland, I'd like to start with you. Welcome back to the committee.
As a counterpoint to the question that came from my colleague Mr. Barlow, I understand science-based decision-making is very important. Our committee has possession of a letter that was written by 20 experts—veterinarians who have many years of experience in animal welfare and veterinary medicine. I'm going to read their conclusion into the record:
While the Health of Animals Act and regulations provide some protection for horses during transport, they do not prevent horses from experiencing some of the most severe negative affective states during transit. Because there are significant stressors inherent in the transportation of horses from Canadian feedlots overseas for slaughter, it is not possible to continue this practice without causing significant animal suffering.
It is important to put that on the record. There are people with many years of experience in this field who are raising very legitimate concerns. That is based on their scientific assessment of the practice.
I don't want to focus too much on that. I want to go to your opening remarks where you said the CFIA was responsible for making sure that horses were meeting the export requirements of Canada but also the import requirements of the host country. It's my understanding that when the horses land in Japan, that's where our jurisdiction ends.
If, upon arrival in Japan, there is a discovery of injured horses—horses who obviously had medical distress—how do we collect that data? Are we depending on the goodwill of the Japanese? Do they take it from that point? I'm wondering how the oversight transition happens at that point.
Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, and Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
The regulations do require the transporter to report fatalities or significant injuries to the agency.
NDP
Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, and Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Our expectation is that the transporter report to us injuries and mortalities, even if the plane was landing in another jurisdiction. We would have several opportunities. In addition, we have connections and communications with Japanese authorities, so there are a number of ways that information may be shared with us. Our regulations are clear in terms of asking the transporter, the regulated party, to report to us those instances.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Nix, I'd like to turn to you.
Since the ministerial mandate letter at the beginning of this Parliament, your agency has had a lot of time to consider this question and the policy implications of it. You've talked about the consultations.
In the meantime, we have two bills. We have Bill C-355, which is before this committee right now, but we also have a bill from Senator Dalphond in the Senate. We have two different legislative approaches. We have private members' bills looking at this.
In all of the time the department has had to consult the major stakeholders and really dive into the implications of this, the implications of the ministerial mandate letter and now two bills, what was the AAFC's preferred policy approach in dealing with this and executing the ministerial mandate letter? Do you see a path through Bill C-355? Is that what the department was considering? Was it Bill S-270, or was it something completely different?
Committee members would really like to judge this piece of legislation against what the department itself was considering.