Agriculture Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

Absolutely. The health of animals regulations are there.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

You said they were being enforced differently by the CFIA depending on what the end use is.

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

No, I'm not talking about the CFIA's enforcement. What I'm talking about is the way individuals ship these horses.

My understanding—and our two witnesses here could probably speak to this—is that whether they ship, say, 100 horses three or four at a time in small wooden crates on one plane for a sporting event.... I'd be quite surprised. I've never seen any documentation of that and I have seen a fair bit of footage and seen photos of the many different ways these horses are transported. Those are all—

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

You're saying you'd be surprised, but you don't have.... The CFIA is the science-based department and the officials are saying the standards are the same.

Just quickly, would Bill C-355 ban the slaughter of horses in Canada?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

No, Bill C-355 would not impact our domestic horse slaughter industry. It's specifically focused on the export of horses for slaughter overseas.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Are you opposed to the transportation of horses or other animals for any reason other than slaughter? Are you fine with transporting show horses by air and cattle by truck? Are those issues you support or oppose?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We're at time. However, Ms. Mitchell, I'll give you time to respond.

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

I'd have trouble answering that question quickly, because you listed a bunch of different types of transport.

I try to take a very science-based position based on the facts. What I can say is that the way these specific horses are exported is completely unacceptable and causes significant suffering.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Carr for up to six minutes.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mitchell and our other witnesses, welcome. Thanks so much for being here.

I was a bit concerned about a couple of components in the testimony offered by Dr. Ireland and folks from CBSA and Agriculture Canada.

Specifically, the word “expectation” came up a lot. However, to Mr. MacGregor's question, I did not hear a lot that would satisfy a response to whether there is an enforcement or reporting mechanism in place. It makes me think as an educator of how we send our kids to camp. We wake up in the morning and everything is good. We get them dressed and pack their bags. The lunches are there. We have the emergency contact numbers, but we never hear from anybody at camp. Of course, the difference is that these kids come back from camp and the horses don't.

The point I'm trying to make is that it seems as though we're talking about things being done right up to a certain point. I think my colleague from the Bloc, Monsieur Perron, asked a very interesting question about whether there is a difference in the regulations for those travelling for slaughter versus those travelling for show. The difference, of course, is that show horses or those participating in other activities are going to come back.

Once these horses get to Japan, for example, they are being fattened up intentionally, and we don't seem to have any reporting mechanism. I take it that our Canadian regulators are saying there are rules in place for once the horse lands in Japan. I'm still not convinced, based on the word “expectation” alone, that this is actually happening in accordance with the law. Once the horse moves out of the sight and control of Canadian legislation and into the Japanese market, we don't seem to know.

Can you elaborate at all on what we know from the Japanese side of things—or any other country receiving a Canadian horse through export—in terms of how they're treated and what that looks like?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

Unfortunately, we don't know too much. As you point out and as we heard this morning, the CFIA is certainly at the airport. I've reviewed hundreds if not thousands of pages of ATIP request documents that show what we know about them in transport. If, at the end of the journey, the flight lands and a horse is dead or has collapsed and is still down—of course, we don't know if they collapsed before the end—that information is reported back to the CFIA and we review it.

However, that's about where it ends. As I said, we don't know how long it takes to unload the horses. We don't know how many of them developed some of the illnesses that experts have flagged with this committee—pleuropneumonia, shipping fever, or colic—or how many have their immune or endocrine systems impacted by this journey. We simply don't know.

I agree with you that “expectation” is a very concerning word, because once the horses are in Japan, it's a bit of a black hole.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Part of the focus of the argument from some of my colleagues who oppose the legislation has been around the Canadian side. It's fair that they are speaking to certain regulatory components that exist within Canadian legislation, but that completely ignores the second half of the process, which is that we are where the horse originates. The animal is ultimately being provided the opportunity, through this legislation, to get into the hands of a foreign market and then out of our control.

It's concerning to me that we're not spending more time talking about what's happening to these animals once they get to their ultimate destination, because we don't have the moral or ethical capacity to raise our hands and say we did everything right on our side, but now that they're over there, it's up to the Japanese, or whichever other receiver of those animals, to decide how they're going to be treated. It simply speaks to us doing a part of our role.

I want to turn quickly to another thing, though.

Some of my colleagues have poked at me a bit and said, “Ben, this is not something that matters to people. You're just bending to the will of animal rights advocates.”

Ms. Mitchell, you're actually a constituent of mine. Could you speak to the degree to which you hear, in our riding of Winnipeg South Centre, about the concern from your neighbours, your friends, your family and the people I represent in relation to this particular practice?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

Absolutely. As you point out, it is a matter that a huge number of Canadians—and polling supports this—are concerned about. You're right that folks in our riding—and I've spoken to many of them—have expressed concerns. My understanding is that this issue also crosses political boundaries. Folks in many of the Conservative members' ridings have some concerns as well.

The science is there and public opinion is there, so it's very much my hope that we'll see this bill move forward.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Carr.

Colleagues, I'll have to jump out of the chair here in a minute, but I'll turn it over to Monsieur Perron.

You have the floor for six minutes.

You'll be in good hands with Mr. Barlow for the rest of the meeting.

Thank you so much.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for joining us.

I especially want to thank you for accepting our invitation, Ms. Mitchell. I am sorry that I'm not there with you in person. This is one of the few times when I am not there in the room. I send my greetings as if I were there in person.

My first questions are for you, Ms. Mitchell.

There is a lot of talk about horse transport conditions, which are established by the CFIA. The agency says that the standards are the same for horses transported for slaughter as for other purposes. However, those who transport horses for other purposes take greater care or precautions.

The CFIA representatives told us earlier that the transport standards were reviewed in 2019 and implemented in 2021. Has that improved the situation?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

Yes. When the regulations were revised in 2019, there were some improvements. I would probably describe them as modest improvements. We still have some of the worst animal transport standards in the western world. The limit is now 28 hours, not 36. The focus on only that time doesn't address so many other issues for these horses. We don't have temperature requirements, or really any details on the way they're transported.

There are others, like Air Canada for instance, that have taken steps to really heighten those standards and make sure the welfare of horses is protected above and beyond what our very limited regulations require.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I see that it varies.

The bill seeks to ban the transport of horses for a specific purpose. Let's set aside the more emotional side of horse transport. Indeed, for many people, horses have a different status from that of other animals intended for slaughter. Wouldn't the solution instead be to review transport conditions?

Have you taken any steps in that direction? I would like to hear your comments on that.

If, tomorrow morning, we guaranteed that the transport conditions for all horses would be the same, regardless of whether they were transported for competitions or for other purposes, would that satisfy you?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

I think I would have to look at the specific proposal. What I would say is that even based on geography, we're talking about feedlots located—I'm from Manitoba, so I'll focus on Manitoba—at least five hours from the airport. To get horses, dozens if not more than 100 horses at a time, from a feedlot to the Winnipeg airport in all seasons—summer, winter—load them on planes and land them before they cross the ocean to refuel is an incredibly long journey.

What I'm trying to say is that there's only so much we can do to minimize suffering if we accept that it is a journey these horses are going to take, and they are going to take it not one or two at a time but up to about 110 at a time. I can't foresee a way to create regulations that would allow for that to happen without causing suffering. Furthermore, we have to ensure that there are contingency plans in place so that if unforeseen circumstances arise over that entire long and complicated journey, they will absolutely be protected.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you for that. I gather that the possibility could be considered, but that, ultimately, it wouldn't really satisfy you.

In your presentation, you mentioned the needless suffering that horses undergo during transport, even on a short three-hour drive. You also said that the maximum transport time of 28 hours was sometimes exceeded.

Basically, the intent of the carriers and the standards in place is to prevent animal suffering as much as possible. I think everyone agrees with that.

To be very honest with you, Ms. Mitchell, I really wonder about the precedent that will be set if Bill C‑355 is passed. Other animal species can experience difficulties during transport. Could we not end up, as is the case in other states, in a race to ban the export of other animals? There are a lot of industries involved. We export a large number of animal species, including pigs, cows and chickens. What do you think?

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

I've heard this argument come up a few times before at the committee, the slippery slope argument of what's next. I would say this bill is very targeted to one very specific practice. I have seen no evidence to suggest that there is a real risk of a slippery slope here. The bill is really science-based. We're talking about horses, which have very unique physiology, and we're talking about a very specific type of transport that scientific evidence shows us causes harm and suffering.

With respect, I really don't see any risk here of a slippery scope, and banning this one specific practice will not adversely affect any other agriculture industry in Canada.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Let's set aside other species. Do you not think that, in a year or two, this could lead to calls to end horse slaughter in Canada, for example?

My time is up, but can you give us a quick answer?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Do you have a quick response? I'm sorry; I wasn't sure if there was really a question there.

[Kaitlyn Mitchell]

I'll just quickly repeat what I said earlier, which is that this specific bill will not impact our domestic horse slaughter industry. I've been raising concerns about that industry for years, but I really see this as a completely separate discussion.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Colleagues, we have a vote in about 14 minutes. I'm just looking for unanimous consent that we'll vote by app. I'll give you guys a warning in a couple of minutes.

We'll get your six minutes in with no problem, Alistair.

Do we have consent to carry on, and then we'll vote by app?