Agriculture Committee on Oct. 27th, 2025

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Kyle, that's exactly what I want to know. You say you could do it if you had the resources, but what resources do you need?

We would like to have figures so that we can make a concrete proposal to the government in our report on this study. We would like to be able to tell them that you need x number of dollars to hire specialists. We could recommend that it take action. We would like to tell them that it would be resolved within three to six months.

Could we realistically make such a recommendation?

[Christopher Kyle]

I'm not prepared to tell you what monetary resources we need right now. Maybe Geoff would like to step in here.

It's going to take us some time to re-establish the database. I think the proposal we put forth to Chicken Farmers of Canada was that we're going to work on that over the next year. We want to reassess the test and re-establish the database. We have been given the resources to do that by Chicken Farmers of Canada.

As for the resources to actually deploy the test, I can't speak to that right now. I don't know if you can, Geoff.

Those discussions did happen in the past, but we're a decade later.

[Geoff Lumby]

Yes, if I can jump in—

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Coteau]

I'm going to stop you there, Geoff. I apologize. The time is finished. Maybe you'll be able to bring that up afterward.

I'm going to go to the Conservatives. I'm going to Mr. Gourde for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ruel, it seems that we are able to estimate the volume and market value of fake spent hens in Canada with relative accuracy, but we don't seem to know where they come from or where they go.

How do we estimate that, if we don't know how many spent hens are coming into the country?

[Yves Ruel]

To estimate the number of spent hens imported illegally, we use American slaughter levels and talk to companies that slaughter spent hens in the United States. We know that they don't send all their hens to Canada. Therefore, it is impossible for import levels to be as high as they are right now.

We calculated that, this year, imports accounted for 115% of the number of hens slaughtered in the United States. That's impossible, because their companies also sell them at home and in other countries.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Could we put pressure on importers of spent hens?

They receive shipments full of boxes that say “spent hens”, but they potentially have broiler chicken in them. The guilty parties could be found quite easily. They all have to be spent hen importers.

Is that correct?

[Yves Ruel]

They are declared that way so that they can cross the border. That's where the risk lies, but we don't have access to those shipments. The Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, controls imports.

As chicken farmers, we can't barge up to the border or to processing plants and demand that shipments be opened to see what's in them. We don't have the authority to do that. It's up to the government authorities to do it.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

What proportion of spent hen imports are made up of fake spent hens? Is it close to 50%?

[Yves Ruel]

It is estimated that a normal, legitimate volume of imports of spent hens from the United States in a given year is 60 million kilograms. This year, the trend is towards 105 million kilograms: 45 million kilograms of a highly suspicious volume of imports and 60 million kilograms of a legitimate volume of imports.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

That broiler chicken ends up on the Canadian market.

Is it going to distributors, processors, restaurants? Where is it going?

[Yves Ruel]

We don't know, and no one will boast about buying illegally imported products.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I want to come back to the idea of exerting pressure.

If we were to draw up a list of importers of spent hens, we would practically have a list of suspects.

In your opinion, is it just one or two importers? Are some importers above board?

[Yves Ruel]

The CBSA would be best placed to answer that question, because they are in the process of completing their third round of verifications of spent hen imports.

So far, according to the minister's statements, the CBSA has claimed $361 million in duties, interest and penalties for misdeclared imports. There are a number of importers involved, and they would probably have more information to give you. It depends on their confidentiality rules.

We don't have access to the details, obviously, because we're not responsible for enforcing import rules in Canada.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I get the impression that there are a handful of people who are making a lot of money on the backs of our Canadian chicken farmers right now. This is extremely disappointing, because we need to protect Canada's agricultural infrastructure at all costs.

We have to find a way to send a clear message to these importers to help Canadians and the agricultural sector. Right now, they're doing wrong. They're stealing money from farmers' pockets.

[Yves Ruel]

We agree with you. Thank you for inviting us to appear as part of your work on this topic. It is an important topic for us.

As Mr. Klompmaker said, this subject is so important that we have already invested $250,000 in research and are prepared to invest an additional $350,000 to update the test.

We want to be part of the solution.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Coteau]

Thank you.

We'll go to the Liberals for five minutes.

MP Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac—Kitigan Zibi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being with us. We know how hard our producers work. We're all here together to build a strong Canadian economy.

We obviously have trade challenges with our neighbours to the south. Therefore, it's important to solve the fraud problem, regardless of its origin, because Canada has entered into trade agreements. It abides by those agreements, and it is important to enforce them and detect cases of fraud.

I have three questions.

First, Mr. Ruel, you mentioned DNA testing. The CBSA is tracing these products and has estimated the fraud at $361 million. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Can you tell us more about other verification methods?

[Yves Ruel]

Over the past few years, the CBSA has verified a number of importers. They found that there was a certain volume of imports—I don't have the exact number—that were declared fraudulently. In other words, poultry was imported into Canada under the wrong tariff class. The CBSA claimed $361 million in penalties and interest on misdeclared imports.

One of the methods, then, is verification. The agency handles the process, so it can explain it better than I can. However, I can tell you that this was an accounting audit of import documents, which is done probably within a year or 18 months after the import. They are making a valiant effort.

Unfortunately, we are seeing that illegal imports are not decreasing despite all this. This year, we saw an upsurge. Therefore, we still have to be responsible and look at other solutions if the solution in place isn't enough.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac—Kitigan Zibi, QC]

From what I understand, certain verification methods work, since money has been claimed. However, you want another method to be applied in at the same time.

My colleague Mr. Perron asked you earlier what resources you would need. We all know that we have to be very careful with the money we invest. This is the taxpayers' money, and we want to invest it properly.

Is there already infrastructure in place to do DNA testing, or does it need to be created? For example, do spent hens have to be stored in large refrigerators so that inspectors can go and test them on site?

Do we need to invest in building new infrastructure that will contain refrigerated spaces to store them before doing the tests?

I'm not clear on how all of this is going to be implemented and what the cost is going to be. Like my colleague, I have questions about that.

[Yves Ruel]

I can't speak to government measures. It's up to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the Canada Border Services Agency to determine how they want to proceed.

The way we look at it is that the costs will probably be relatively minimal. They may be lower than what the agencies are currently spending on verification. Once people in the industry are aware that there is an effective DNA test in place, illegal imports will no doubt decrease enormously or stop entirely.

We never thought about holding meat shipments at the border. They can still be marketed pending the results, which will come in a few weeks later.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac—Kitigan Zibi, QC]

Mr. Ruel just talked about efficiency. Mr. Lumby, you said that you don't necessarily have all the databases you need to ensure that the DNA test is effective. You also said that the results of a test could lead to fraud charges.

What is the status of the data banks? Would a lack of data prevent the test from being used effectively?

[Christopher Kyle]

Can I take that one, Geoff?

[Geoff Lumby]

It's a question really for Chris, but I can just quickly put a preamble in there. After the test was created—