Evidence of meeting #5 for Bill C-2 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joanna Gualtieri  Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)
Allan Cutler  As an Individual
Rob Wright  President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
Jim McArdle  Senior Vice-President, Legal Services & Secretary, Export Development Canada

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Let me call the meeting to order.

This is the Legislative Committee on Bill C-2, meeting number five. The orders of the day are for Bill C-2, which is an act providing for conflict of interest rules, restrictions on election financing, and measures respecting administrative transparency, oversight, and accountability.

Before we start with our guests today, I have two matters I'd like to raise with the committee. In fact, I'll give them both to you at the same time.

The Chief Electoral Officer, who will be appearing before this committee on May 16 at 9 o'clock, has asked the clerk that he be allowed more time than the allotted 40 minutes. The question I will be asking the committee is whether they would agree to extending the sitting on May 16 for the Chief Electoral Officer by a round. That would mean we would rise at 12:10, assuming we're on time, instead of 12 o'clock.

Is there unanimous consent for that?

3:35 p.m.

An hon. member

Agreed.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You didn't hear what I was saying? You have to pay attention when this meeting's called.

I'm asking for consent. The Chief Electoral Officer, on May 16, has asked for extra time, and I'm suggesting a round. That would take us to 12:10, if we allowed that extra round.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC

Rather than our doing it, could you check the time and wait until he comes here and then see if he needs extra time?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You can do that. If there's no unanimous consent, we'll move on to the next one.

The Australian Prime Minister will be in Ottawa on May 18. As you know, question period will be at 11 o'clock. The Information Commissioner will be appearing in the morning, so we'll be short by an hour.

I'm asking the committee if there would be consent for the committee to hear from the Information Commissioner from 9 o'clock until 10:30, and then we would adjourn.

3:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Is there unanimous consent?

I hear no opposition to that.

Then it will be understood, as far as the Chief Electoral Officer is concerned, that we'll wait until May 16 to see how things are.

Thank you.

We have two guests before us from FAIR, the Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform: Joanna Gualtieri—I'll let you correct me—and David Hutton.

Good afternoon to you.

3:35 p.m.

Joanna Gualtieri Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

Thank you. Good afternoon.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

If you wish to make a few brief comments, you can.

3:35 p.m.

Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

Joanna Gualtieri

Thank you.

First, thank you, committee members and Mr. Chair, for having us. I have a few opening comments, and then we will deal with the six election promises regarding the promise of ironclad whistleblower protection.

I think we all can understand that understanding is best acquired through personal experience. Fortunately, most of us will be spared the experience lived by whistle-blowers, but it is precisely this absence of experience that challenges us in understanding what we need to do to provide effective legal protection. I hope that through your deliberations this committee will nonetheless understand that ironclad whistle-blower protection comes not from rhetoric or illusory devices, but rather from locking in fundamental civil and legal rights.

I hope that none of you experiences the retaliation whistle-blowers do; likewise, I hope you don't experience the tragedy that can result when we all remain silent. Twenty years ago, 60,000 Canadians were infected with HIV and hepatitis C while the government secretly debated what to do regarding our tainted blood supply. Thousands of others kept bedside vigils as their loved ones died a long and painful death, while the government covered up. We owe it to them today to ensure that above all else we are guided by simple principles: the public's right to know and an employee's right to tell.

History has given us profiles in courage: Dr. Michele Brill-Edwards, Dr. Pierre Blais, the three veterinarians at Health Canada. All departed from the unspoken conspiracy of silence to alert Health Canada to dangers. Career diplomat Brian McAdam, who is here, and RCMP Corporal Robert Read alerted the Prime Minister about threats to our national security. Linda Merk, who heroically went up to the Supreme Court of Canada, advised about corrupt union bosses. And Allan Cutler, who you will hear from, spoke about the sponsorship scandal.

What they share in common is that their careers were destroyed or detrimentally affected, and that they have faced persecution in our courts by the Department of Justice.

My knowledge regarding whistle-blower rights and protection began when I started at the Department of Foreign Affairs and spoke about extravagance and waste. Multi-million-dollar residences sat vacant while the taxpayers footed the bill for houses more to the diplomats' liking. I alerted senior management and the minister and was stonewalled and my livelihood destroyed.

As a lawyer, I could not ignore the horrific abuses applied against conscientious public servants. We needed a voice, counsel, and information, and that was the beginning of FAIR.

Today, our operations as a non-profit, non-partisan organization are made possible by a growing group of dedicated volunteers, and we are grateful for advisers, including the Honourable David Kilgour, Dr. Gerard Seijts of the Ivey School of Business, and Dr. David Swann, Calgary MLA. Our mission is threefold: to assist whistle-blowers, educate the public about their indispensable role in combating wrongdoing, and provide commentary about effective legislation.

I've learned this: that we are utterly dependent as a society on the flow of reliable insider information to combat wrongdoing that threatens the public interest. There is tremendous goodwill among our citizenry, but governments are more reticent to embrace strong protection.

We are really encouraged by the consultative approach of this new government and are deeply grateful for the openness of Pierre Poilievre, the parliamentary secretary to the President of the Treasury Board. It reflects a substantial change from the previous government, where, for example, Minister Lloyd Axworthy threatened me with libel for daring to say there was anything wrong.

Let us look now at the six components of the election promise. I would refer you as a benchmark to the whistle-blower protection law of the Organization of American States, of which, incidentally, Canada is of course a member. They have ratified the Inter-American Convention Against Corruption. This model should be our model.

The first promise is to give the public service integrity commissioner the power to enforce compliance with the act.

We know that employees remain silent for two reasons: fear of reprisal, and the belief that nothing will change. In order to combat this, the commissioner must have order powers. Unfortunately, Bill C-11 fails. Regarding the wrongdoing, the commissioner can only report to Parliament and make recommendations, and we know that bureaucrats and ministers have ignored officers of Parliament, including the Auditor General and the Information Commissioner.

Regarding whistle-blower protection, the commissioner has no power to grant a remedy, but can refer the matter to a tribunal. This will invariably start a long and onerous process for the whistle-blower, who never has control over his or her case. Rights inherently include the authority to enforce them, but this legislation offers promises whose enforcement is beyond the reprisal victim's control.

By contrast, the ombudsman in the OAS model has such corrective powers and remedial powers. In order to meet this election promise, at the very minimum the bill should provide that the minister or head of an offending department or crown corporation or agency shall take prompt corrective action as recommended by the commissioner.

The second point is to ensure that all Canadians who report government wrongdoing are protected, not just public servants. This is an important point. There's ample and growing precedent to base protection on what information the dissenter is disclosing, rather than on the person's employment context. This reflects the OAS model and the False Claims Act in the United States. To meet this election promise, Bill C-11 should at the very least provide that any time the government retaliates against a citizen who exercises freedom of expression, it violates human rights.

The third point we agree with, and that is the government's inability to exempt crown corporations and other bodies. Our position is clear. No government department, agency, or crown corporation should be exempted. They are all stewards of taxpayers' money.

The fourth point requires the prompt public disclosure of information revealed by the whistle-blower. In this regard, we must say that Bill C-11 fails dismally. It obligates the commissioner to make secret forever all information gathered in the course of the commissioner's investigation. It is also exempt from Access to Information requests. This provision is in fact more draconian than what the Liberal Government proposed. Inexcusable and Orwellian, it turns Bill C-11 into an anti-transparency proposal. Any whistle-blower acting under the law is in fact gagging himself or herself and locking in secrecy exactly when the public has a right to know. The American and OAS models contain anti-gag provisions. Bill C-11 must therefore provide that any information acquired by the commissioner must be accessible under access laws; in fact, we state that reports and materials should be deposited with a public registry.

The fifth point is a very important one. It relates to the whistle-blower's access to courts and the provision of legal counsel. Bill C-11 again is wanting.

The first part relates to the restoration of access to our courts of justice, which the Liberal government stripped away. This was done in 2003 by virtue of the Public Service Modernization Act. As insiders at the Department of Justice and Treasury Board said, it was because the government was embarrassed at being sued by public servants for harassment and abuse of power. Bill C-11 sets up a special-purpose tribunal to deal with whistle-blower cases, but it fails to reinstate the right to sue in court.

Let me be clear. A fair day in court with a history of openness, transparency, due process, public accessibility, and court reporting is the bottom line for the validity of any remedial law. I must say that the net result with Bill C-11 in this regard is that Canadian whistle-blower rights are regressing, and this proposal institutionalizes this retreat.

It's worth noting that in the United States, which has 40 years of history with whistle-blower law and where radical improvements are being made, the whistle-blowers are allowed to walk into court with their heads held high and have jury trials, in which they will be judged by the public, the intended beneficiaries of whistle-blowing.

The other issue is legal representation. It is a cruel delusion if victims cannot afford to enforce their rights. At the very least, whistle-blowers must have the same access to counsel as wrongdoers who have the public purse to defend them. I urge you to invite the Minister of Justice to provide testimony on what steps he has taken to end the abuses being directed at whistle-blowers currently in the courts. The $1,500 for legal advice is wholly inadequate.

The last point, and I'll be very brief, is the establishment of monetary rewards for whistle-blowers. This garnered a lot of debate during the election campaign. I'd like to provide some clarification. Suing for damages should not be confused with monetary rewards. Our position is that reprisal victims must have the right to sue for comprehensive punitive and compensatory damages. The idea is to make available make-whole remedies to heal the scars of retaliation.

The issue of allowing whistle-blowers to take a cut of moneys that are recovered from those who commit fraud against government is another issue. I note that Monsieur Poilievre has said they will look into it, and we support this. I would merely say that society benefits when the business of fighting corruption becomes more profitable than engaging in it.

I'd like to conclude by saying that this committee has a historic opportunity to provide meaningful protection for employees who through their individual acts of courage serve us, the public. How are we to justify giving our first-class public service the second-class rights that Bill C-11 provides? This is not the time for political expedience. The deaths from Walkerton, the blood scandal, and Air India demonstrate powerfully what can result when we fail to promote and protect free speech.

I urge you to invite the testimony of the Government Accountability Project in Washington, D.C. They are the world's leader on both legislation and whistle-blower rights as a fundamental plank in government accountability. This is the time that we should do right and not rush to adhere to arbitrary deadlines, as Canadians are expecting no less.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much, Ms. Gualtieri.

Mr. Owen.

We have seven-minute rounds per caucus.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Thank you, Ms. Gualtieri.

I think many of us, if not all of us, in this room understand that the horrific experience you went through has added force to the demand for whistle-blower legislation in this country, which is real and remedial in the way you've set out, but also serves the broader public interest. I think Bill C-11 and Bill C-2 at this stage are a testament to your courage, determination, and resilience in this process. So thank you for that, and thank you for the very comprehensive brief.

I have a couple of questions on points one and four.

With respect to the power to actually enforce with the commissioner, despite the OAS ombudsman model you've referenced, in most ombudsman systems you do not include the power to enforce, the power of sanction, because certainly in a parliamentary system the person is an officer of Parliament and there, in effect, to assist members of Parliament to get to the truth, make it public, and get some remedial action either through embarrassment of the executive or direct legislative action.

The difficulty, of course--and I suspect this is what the government was considering in Bill C-2--is that an officer of Parliament is not elected and does not operate within a quasi-judicial due process regime. So I suspect that the suggestion for the tribunal, while it may provide some delay, is to bring that aspect of procedural fairness into fact-finding and then a sanction.

I take your point about the delay and the need to expedite matters, but I suspect that's what's going on, and I'd like to have your view on that.

The other one is the question that--and you've mentioned it--as a second-best choice, if Parliament or the government is not going to respond to a recommendation of the commissioner, then the government should have to, in a deliberative and reasoned way, explain to Parliament why not. I think that is very much in the practice of ombudsman-type models around the world, certainly in Canada, and that can be helpful.

I'll give two examples where that is used quite effectively: first of all, in the Law Commission of Canada, where its statute sets out that it's a public but independent body on law reform, but when it gives a report to the Minister of Justice, it must be tabled in Parliament and the minister must respond in Parliament, in a reasoned fashion, within a certain period of time.

There are also models in judicial compensation provisions in different provinces that require that after an independent commission makes a recommendation on increased compensation--and I don't think they've ever recommended decreased compensation for judges--if that's not followed by the government, again a reasoned response must be tabled in the legislature and that can be reviewable by a court for its reasonableness. So there's an additional model there.

The other point I'll mention briefly concerns the discretion to release. I agree with you certainly that in Bill C-2 we have to look very carefully at those increased restrictions, or exemptions, really, on release in a number of provisions there. You should at least have a public interest override or consent—at least consent, but a public interest override as well—and also a demonstration of harm, so that it not just be a blanket exemption.

I wonder if you might respond to those observations.

3:50 p.m.

Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

Joanna Gualtieri

Thank you for those questions.

I must profess, you are far more an expert on the parliamentary system than I am. I know, I have friends who have spoken very highly about the work you've done.

I think the point that has to be made is that there has to be a strong signal that corrective action will be likely. And I think that Bill C-11.... We are weary, as Canadians, of seeing recommendations go to Parliament and having nothing happen. I don't know the modality, and it's difficult to say that an officer of Parliament is going to issue an edict or an order that a minister has to follow. Those are issues that I, quite frankly, don't have the absolute answer to. But I think that at the very least, ministers have to be held more accountable in some way in this act, and I don't see that yet. They have to at least be held to account for why they did not take corrective action.

Regarding the issue of the release of information, I think this is critical, because it basically slams the door on the purpose of whistle-blowing, which is ultimately to respect the public's interest. I think it's very dangerous. We saw in the Gomery inquiry, in which Canadians took a great interest, that the Prime Minister released a significant amount of cabinet material, and we learned a lot from that. That's another issue I haven't touched on.

I am going to provide to the committee a detailed analysis, which point by point will go through what should be an effective whistle-blowing law.

I do not believe there should be an absolute exemption on cabinet and solicitor-client materials. I think that's dangerous. We saw a president come down in the United States because of information that ultimately would have been kept private. I think the public had a right to know what was going on. Likewise, we had a right to know what was going on in the sponsorship scandal.

And finally, there are not exemptions that the commissioner has to evaluate; he has a duty. The language is that he “shall keep secret” all materials gathered, and that, I believe, has to be amended.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Sauvageau.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Good afternoon, Ms. Gualtieri. Thank you for coming and telling us about your tough experience. Some of us and a number of your colleagues had the pleasure and privilege of hearing your comments on Bill C-11, and they were highly instructive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I heard you say that Bill C-11 did not provide enough protection. So you would have disclosed no information under Bill C-11? Is it true that bill didn't offer the necessary guarantees?

3:55 p.m.

Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

Joanna Gualtieri

Let me just break that down.

Bill C-11 prohibits disclosure, for instance, of cabinet confidences or solicitor-client privilege. So anybody who ascertains that there is evidence of wrongdoing in those documents must remain silent. I obviously have a problem with that.

The other point is--

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Pardon me for interrupting you. I'll simplify my question. If Bill C-11 had been in effect a few years ago, would you have disclosed wrongdoing or would you have thought you didn't have enough protection?

I ask you that question because, this week, 12 unions representing more than 90,000 public servants said they wanted Bill C-11 to go into effect immediately, even if it was not perfect, so that they would have a minimum safety net pending passage of Bill C-2.

Do you think it would be desirable to implement Bill C-11 before completing the study of Bill C-2—which Mr. Poilievre and I would like to finish as soon as possible—so that those public servants have some protection, even if it isn't perfect? I'd like to hear your comments on that subject.

3:55 p.m.

Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

Joanna Gualtieri

That's a very good question.

I feel that it is dangerous to implement Bill C-11 as it currently is. I feel that as a whistle-blower and as a lawyer. It's very hard to amend laws once they are in place and there develops a certain inertia.

The point that must be made about whistle-blowing is that many public servants don't even know they're whistle-blowers. This act offers protection only once the whistle-blower has formalized a complaint process. The fact is we know from talking to Dr. Shiv Chopra or Dr. Michelle Brill-Edwards or myself that we have been harassed relentlessly as a function of just doing our job.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

The amendments wouldn't been too hard to implement, since Bill C-2 amends 70 existing federal statutes. In addition, it already proposes amendments to Bill C-11. Perhaps I didn't understand something. Even the President of the Treasury Board said that imperfect protection was better than no protection at all. Wouldn't that suggest to the public service that we're moving ahead?

4 p.m.

Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

Joanna Gualtieri

I recognize your point, Monsieur Sauvageau, and I think it's a very logical one. However, speaking to whistle-blowers, I think you'll get a different response. That is because they have the experience of going through it.

If we pass a law that is inadequate, then we potentially give the false impression that people are protected. That is one point.

Secondly, we have the opportunity to do it right. I think we should. We have to remember that this is a country that has a common law background, and that public servants enjoy rights through their common law rights as well. We should not make exclusive defective rights contained in a defective bill.

I want to add one last point, and that is I think there is the will among the politicians to do the right thing but I'm not so sure that the drafters—and that is the lawyers at Treasury Board and at the justice department—are reflecting that spirit. That comes through my ten years of experience with this. I'm not trying to disparage anybody, but I think we have to be aware of that potential.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

I don't want to be impolite by interrupting you, but we only have seven minutes and I have other questions to ask.

I believe we're saying the same thing in different terms. Yes, it's preferable to have a perfect act. However, in my view, it would be good for us to have minimum protection before this legislation is passed.

I have just enough time left to ask you another question. Do you agree with the idea of offering whistleblowers a $1,000 reward? Off the bat, I think that's a bad signal to give them.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You have time for one more question.

4 p.m.

Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

Joanna Gualtieri

No, I don't support that. My point is that you give rights to the whistle-blower to claim for damages. Damages are not unjust enrichment; you have to prove your damages. But I can assure you that the damage for most whistle-blowers far exceeds a trivial thousand dollars.

Merci.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

Mr. Dewar.

4 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

It's good to see you again. Thank you for taking the time, and for the comprehensive overview you left us with. I look forward to the other recommendations and your analysis.

I actually want to take a different tack on the questions that have been presented, in that I'd like to ask a couple of factual questions on your case. I'm intrigued, or wanting to know a little bit more, about your case and when it started. When did you blow the whistle, so to speak? What year was that?